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Dark skinned Japanese? - cae99v - 2013-04-25
I was watching a video by a Japanese rap group called Similab. Two of their member are dark-skinned. So i have two questions: 1) are the guys in that group mixed, 2) are there a fair amount of dark-skinned( by this i mean non tanned,not mixed, "pure", and native) Japanese people?
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-25
1. Yes
2. Not really - maybe down in Okinawa
Dark skinned Japanese? - Hyperborea - 2013-04-25
Some Japanese can get a really dark tan with a lot of sun. That may be the reason for those you mention above. Maybe tanning beds? There was a fashion trend for dark tans a few years ago called ganguro.
Dark skinned Japanese? - Stansfield123 - 2013-04-25
Huh? Yes, of course there are varying shades of lighter/darker skin among Japanese people (naturally, not just due to the fact that East Asians tan darker than Europeans). This is so obvious that it's baffling why anyone would say there aren't. For one, you can see the difference it if you've seen enough Japanese people, and second, Japanese popular culture is full of references to fair vs. dark skinned Japanese people.
Obviously, it's a small difference (nowhere near as pronounced as the various shades within a random European nation or among Chinese), but historically it's been a pretty big deal (with white being the standard of beauty), and to this day it's something that's noted (but there no longer is one standard of beauty, instead it's a matter of preference).
Dark skinned Japanese? - Tzadeck - 2013-04-25
Has it really changed? Women still compliment each other constantly along the lines of, "Oh my God, your skin is so white! I'm so jealous!" And there are still so many products and TV commercials promising you beautiful light-colored skin.
Dark skinned Japanese? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-04-25
There are a ton of different skin tones and facial types in Japan. I feel the longer you're here, the more you realize that the concept of "looking Japanese" or being "racially Japanese" is pure fiction. There are light and dark-skinned Japanese people, as well as Japanese people from other gene pools, including "white" and "black" people. To say that someone is "half" or "quarter" or whatever percentage, while common in Japan, also doesn't make much sense to me. At least 1 out of 30 people in Japan are considered to be "half" Japanese, though what the other half is, I can't begin to figure out, since they were born here. And there's a lot more mixed blood in this country than people want to let on. I've written about this rather extensively on http://www.japaneseruleof7.com/whos-really-japanese/
Dark skinned Japanese? - Tzadeck - 2013-04-26
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:being "racially Japanese" is pure fictionIt's also a young concept--the idea that ther is such a thing as racially pure Japanese only started around 1880. Like so much other bullshit, it basically came about by using bad science in order to reinforce social stigmas or as a political tool.
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
I think there's a whole bunch of archetypes among japanese people. There are some people that look very distinctly "japanese" to me, but others that look more generically Asian or more specifically Chinese or Korean. Some look more Yayoi or more Jomon.
I do think race is a valid concept, they just have really fuzzy borders.
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
Lets discuss Japanese as an ethnic group versus Japanese as a nationality.
Are you comfortable refering to people like Debito, Hakuho, or Marutei as "日本人"? Or do you prefer to use ethnic group +系+日本人?
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
depends how well integrated they are into japanese society. Someone born and raised in Japan is 日本人 as far as I'm concerned. Someone who is still obviously foreign (like debito) and has poor language skills would probably be something+系+日本人, even if they are naturalized. Some people may choose to identify as such anyway.
Dark skinned Japanese? - toshiromiballza - 2013-04-26
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I've written about this rather extensively on http://www.japaneseruleof7.com/whos-really-japanese/There's so many errors in that article I don't even know where to begin... If a white person is born in Japan, he is not ethnically Japanese, he is a citizen of Japan only. If a Japanese person is born in Australia, she is ethnically Japanese, and if she moves back to Japan, she is still Japanese by ethnicity, not Australian. The fact that there is more variation within a race than between two races means nothing. There is more variation within the same sex than there is between a male and female. Does that mean sex does not exist? Of course not. I don't even think I need to address the other errors, since these two say enough about the complete inaccuracy of the article.
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
what would you call a minority who was born, raised and lived their entire life in your country?
In Australia, people may self identify as all sorts of things, but if they are born and raised in Australia most people will have no problem accepting that they are Australian be they white, black, asian or whatever.
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
Australian is not an ethnicity. Unless you're aboriginal.
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
i was talking about nationality I guess.
I don't see much reason to treat people according to their ethnicity, but I also don't see much reason to deny it either. The law treats people according to nationality (even in japan), not ethnicity correct me if I'm wrong.
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
nadiatims Wrote:what would you call a minority who was born, raised and lived their entire life in your country?America - African American, Asian American, Hispanic American, Native American, Mexican American, etc...
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
nadiatims Wrote:i was talking about nationality I guess.The law in Japan, written by the US military of all people, says that anyone with Japanese citizenship is considered to be 日本人. But Japanese society does not accept that definition. Which is why you get a ton of raised eyebrows when you call Hakuho or Debito 日本人.
I don't see much reason to treat people according to their ethnicity, but I also don't see much reason to deny it either. The law treats people according to nationality (even in japan), not ethnicity correct me if I'm wrong.
It's easy to get away with calling a person American or Australian no matter what their ethnic roots are. American and Australian refer to nationalities and not ethnic groups. Japan is a bit different where Japanese can refer to both an ethnic group and nationality. It's especially complicated since it's becoming more common for people not of the Japanese ethnic group to become Japanese.
Maybe we need some new words added to the dictionary to make the distinction more clear?
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
well debito speaks with a strong accent and makes a career out of being a gaijin so it hardly surprises me. Don't know about hakuho though.
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
wait a minute. Doesn't "ethnicity" refer to cultural groups rather than race?
If so then Australian and American are ethnicities...
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
That's not a common definition. Americans and (AFAIK) Australians do not equate nationality with ethnicity.
Dark skinned Japanese? - nadiatims - 2013-04-26
above you wrote:
Quote:America - African American, Asian American, Hispanic American, Native American, Mexican American, etc...what about white people..? You don't refer to them as irish, german, etc Americans.
Does that mean white people don't get to have an ethnicity?
surely most white australians, americans, canadians are ethnically whatever their nationality is unless they're first (or second?) generation immigrants from somewhere.
Dark skinned Japanese? - kitakitsune - 2013-04-26
That's one of the perks of white privilege in North America and Australia.
Dark skinned Japanese? - chamcham - 2013-04-26
nadiatims Wrote:above you wrote:I hear "Italian American" all the time. So it does apply to whites.
Quote:America - African American, Asian American, Hispanic American, Native American, Mexican American, etc...what about white people..? You don't refer to them as irish, german, etc Americans.
Does that mean white people don't get to have an ethnicity?
surely most white australians, americans, canadians are ethnically whatever their nationality is unless they're first (or second?) generation immigrants from somewhere.
Dark skinned Japanese? - Tzadeck - 2013-04-26
kitakitsune Wrote:The law in Japan, written by the US military of all people, says that anyone with Japanese citizenship is considered to be 日本人. But Japanese society does not accept that definition. Which is why you get a ton of raised eyebrows when you call Hakuho or Debito 日本人.The Japanese law says that anyone with Japanese nationality is treated as a full citizen. Your nationality is your legal status as a member of a country; your citizenship is your rights and obligations within an nation/state/municipality/etc. Even people who are not nationals of a county have varying degrees of citizenship within that country when they reside there, and some people who are nationals have limited citizenship (for example, people who commit a felony in the United States can no longer vote for President, so they have limited citizenship but are US nationals). At least, as far as I know, these are how these words are usually defined academically in the United States, but not in common speech. (Look at your passport--mine says my nationality is American, not that my citizenship is American, although we usually refer to US nationals as US citizens in everyday language) Either way, it's useful to distinguish between these two concepts even if the words are a bit wishy-washy and used differently in different settings and countries.
It's easy to get away with calling a person American or Australian no matter what their ethnic roots are. American and Australian refer to nationalities and not ethnic groups.
Debito, for example, is a Japanese national, is treated as a full citizen in Japan (legally), but he is not treated as racially or ethnically Japanese by Japanese people. As far as I know he is not racially Japanese, and is only partly culturally Japanese (culture is probably an easier word to use than ethnicity, which is vague as far as I know), so in a way that's no surprise.
I don't think people really get to decide whether or not Debito is a Japanese national or citizen; that's a legal classification and individual peoples' opinions don't matter. And that's what the law is referring to, not race, ethnicity, culture, etc.
The reason people get surprised when Debito is called a 日本人 is that people in Japan really don't understand the difference between nationality, citizenship, cultural identity, physical appearance, language, family history, and so on. Even in America these distinctions are pretty difficult to grasp, but in Japan there is so much less variety and therefore so many less opportunities to learn about these concepts. Most 日本人 are Japanese in nationality, citizenship, physical appearance, language, and family history so they don't understand when these identities don't all overlap. The concept of someone with Japanese nationality and citizenship, but not Japanese appearance and family history, and non-native language skills, can be really confusing to people who are not used to parsing these concepts.
Dark skinned Japanese? - yudantaiteki - 2013-04-26
kitakitsune Wrote:That's one of the perks of white privilege in North America and Australia."White" also tends to be a strange designation because who is included in "white" has changed over the years -- it used to be less inclusive than it is now.
Ethnicity, nationality, and citizenship are all very hard to separate and define. Citizenship may be the easiest because it's usually defined by law (although not always -- US didn't have a definition of a US Citizen until the 14th Amendment, and the constitution still recognizes a difference between a naturalized citizen and someone who was born a citizen in the US).
Ethnicity tends to be harder for white people who have been in the US for many generations because we tend to just get labeled as "white" with our specific ethnic background being a secondary concern (generally to our advantage). My ancestry includes German and Scottish, but I've never considered myself as really identifying with either country or considering myself to be "German ethnicity". But I would probably feel differently if my grandparents were born in Germany, rather than my German ancestors being 7 or 8 generations back.
Dark skinned Japanese? - uisukii - 2013-04-26
kitakitsune Wrote:That's one of the perks of white privilege in North America and Australia.One thing you hear a lot of coming from "white" Australians is referring to "non-white" Australian citizens as not being "Australian". As in the common phrases/memes: "Spot the Aussie" and "What would he/she/they know, he/she/they aren't even Australian/s.".
The use of "" is due to the fact that there is a pretty strong grass roots racist attitude being these sentiments (has been more or less since the birth of Australia as a commonwealth nation). Aside from certain obvious phenotypical traits, I've got no idea how or what the means of self-reference/identity and nationality works in Australia, and I was born here. I don't think it is clear/vaguely cut that "Australians do not equate nationality with ethnicity." or that "Australians do [x] equate nationality with ethnicity.", because it seems to often be a mix of both, depending on the age demographic and geography. Values seem to shift and sway the further you go out of larger metropolitan districts.