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+--- Thread: Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. (/thread-10428.html)
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - blankkor - 2013-01-28
Zlarp Wrote:Everyone can have whatever opinion they want if there is freedom of speech. However, that also means everyone will be allowed to call you out on what you say and hold you responsible. People act as if freedom of speech means that you're also free from the repercussions of having your face smashed if you insult Mike Tyson's mother. It doesn't work like that, guys.Going by the same logic, getting attacked by a pack of Muslims after showing a depiction of Muhammad is a justified repercussion, and not a gross over-reaction. I'm fine with 'being called out' just as I'm fine with calling out when necessary, but comparing verbal abuse to violence makes absolutely no sense. Freedom of Speech is an absolute, either there is freedom or there isn't, if people choose to react violently to said act then they're the ones who are to blame, and it is not a 'repercussion' of posting it, but an over-reaction for those who committed the violent act.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - IceCream - 2013-01-28
blankkor Wrote:Again, i'm not talking about burying your head in the sand and pretending racism doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's something that it's worth opposing if we ever want it to be as socially unacceptable as, say, arguing that rape or murder is ok is. I do want to live in a society that dogmatically opposes these things. I have absolutely no problem with that. So i'm going to stand up and oppose them wherever i can. If you just plan on laying down and letting people walk all over you, fine, go ahead, but that is just what they're gonna continue to do, forever, unless you go about changing things.IceCream Wrote:No, i'm arguing for people to have a freedom from being impacted by racism.That statement is as equally ridiculous in both content and meaning to "Children should have the option of being immortal, and not being told that death exists"
Racism exists, even if you choose to bury your head under a pile of sand(Or in this case, force everyone around you to do so) it will still be there. Hiding from it is futile just as hiding from any other "not-so-pleasant" fact of life. I get that some of you argue that this is an educational website and that 'racist material' should not be tolerated. We're all adults here, and even those who aren't quite there yet are mature enough to know that this world isn't sugar spice and everything nice.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Aspiring - 2013-01-28
AlgoRhythmic Wrote:Lol! Of course you should! Definitely!yudantaiteki Wrote:It makes the site look childish and unmaintained.But if you can learn it FASTER by using racist stories, of course you should do that! We're not idiots, we don't take these stories as facts, they are just memory aids. Actually, the magnet kanji (with the band of niggers story) is one of the kanjis I will probably never forget, because that story (and the fact that it was ranked so high) made me laugh a lot, so it completely stuck in my memory. I also starred it because of that, not because the content is friendly but because it actually helped me remember the kanji, which is what matters.
If there are other racist stories they should be removed as well. If someone can't learn the kanji without racist stories, they shouldn't be learning a foreign language in the first place.
Please note that the story creator's name is 'arrogantape'. I'm going to make the bold assumption that the creator is a blatant racist.
I feel like this should add to this silly censorship debate, but it really doesn't matter. Racism is racism. Humor is subjective.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - AlgoRhythmic - 2013-01-28
Aspiring Wrote:Lol! Of course you should! Definitely!I already had this discussion, but I don't mind taking it with you as well since you apparently didn't bother to read the thread. But you are going to have to elaborate on how my personal stories affect anyone, and why I shouldn't use stories that are as effective as possible when they don't. Instead of just going "hurr durr he is using a racist story and racism is bad so that must be bad herp derp" you could also use your brain instead and realize that there is really no harm in it.
Now you can use whatever stories you like I don't care, but personally I believe the smartest thing to do is to use whatever stories that are as memorable as possible, no matter the content. And please, don't assume that I'm talking about sharing stories all over the Internet like some other people probably did, I'm only talking about using offensive stories as a personal learning help.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Rusty - 2013-01-28
This has been a very interesting thread and I must admit it has changed my mind a bit.
When I started off I thought people were being a bit sensitive. I thought the stories were just mnemonics so it helps to make them as vivid as possible. So on that basis taste didn't matter and might even be a hindrance.
But reading people's comments it is clear to me that some stories will be very offensive to some people and in particular racist stories. And actually when I stopped to think about it I don't actually use racist stories myself as I don't find they work as associations for me.
And as a lot of people have pointed out the stories on this site aren't private - we are posting them to the whole community here so it is right I think not to post things you know some perfectly reasonable people are going to find offensive. After all we gain nothing by sharing a story. We are doing it to help. So I think my attitude in future is going to be - if in doubt don't share.
Against all that I do completely understand why people want to be able to use the most lively images they can as they are going to be memorable for them. But I think there is a big difference in using these stories privately in your own mind (where it is absolutely fine as you are affecting nobody) and publishing them here. The point is you know the stories aren't meant offensively but as the rest of us can't see inside your head we don't know and so its not surprising people don't like it.
The one thing I think I was reacting to earlier when I was supporting the 'free speech' side of things is that I sometimes feel the people who shout racist loudest often are doing so as a power play - its a great way to obliterate an opponent in our society. But reading the posts a bit more carefully I don't believe that was the case here.
I'd be sorry though if stories had to be moderated or censored. I haven't really come across anything very shocking except the one about the pack of N . . . throwing stones. That was pretty surprising I must admit. And if there were a lot of these types of story I'd change my mind - but in the meantime I'd come down on the free speech side of the line while reminding myself to double check what I am personally posting (so far nothing bad I think but I will definitely be a bit more thoughtful).
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - vix86 - 2013-01-28
IceCream Wrote:I'm saying that it's something that it's worth opposing if we ever want it to be as socially unacceptable as, say, arguing that rape or murder is ok is. I do want to live in a society that dogmatically opposes these things.I haven't been following this thread very closely but I looked back at the last page and just want to clarify.
I'm not really sure what point has been getting argued over all these pages really. I'm confused between whether its just an intellectual debate on whether writing something online is an issue, or if its a case of policy on here.
What I will say though, and its your most recent post which kind of makes me think you are suggesting, is this. Policy-wise, whether to carry racist/sexual/etc. stories is ultimately up to the admin.
On the intellectual side of the debate though, I don't see anything wrong with people writing about whatever they want. Sure you can hound them about how deplorable their ideas are, but writing about something should never be illegal. That's tantamount to thoughtcrime.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-28
What does the "report" function do? The story in question has over 100 reports; that seems like it should send it to the bottom of the list, at least. I remember concerns over other stories that weren't offensive but had incorrect meanings or combinations of primitives -- I guess we can't get rid of those either otherwise Mussolini will take over and burn all our books, but does Report do anything?
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Tzadeck - 2013-01-28
I think I learned a lot about racism through racists jokes. I learned about the stereotypes that different groups face at a fairly young age (teenage years), but those stereotypes were presented as jokes and therefore obviously not to be taken seriously. It took me a little extra time to realize just how many people still believe shit like that, and the subtle ways those stereotypes are expressed in more everyday contexts. But I think the jokes actually helped reinforce in me the idea that those stereotypes were ridiculous and stupid; I might not have noticed so quickly if they hadn't initially been presented to me in such a straightforward way, where I could see their ridiculousness under a clear light.
So, it's not completely clear to me that there are no benefits of very offensive racists jokes.
Even if there might be some hidden benefits, that also has to be balanced by the fact that those jokes really could hurt peoples' feelings. And even if it in a backwards way helped me understand that racist stereotypes were stupid, in others it might have the opposite effect of reinforcing the stereotypes; it's hard to say which effect is the greater.
Don't know. In general though, I'm against censorship. In the real world, politicians and other authority figures get away with racist policies and beliefs because they're smart enough to phrase them in such a way that they don't sound straightforwardly racist. There's a simple road map you can follow where you can be racist as long as you avoid phrasing it in a certain way. Censorship helped contribute to this, and it has made thinking about racism more difficult for people who don't realize the ways it's being hidden in plain sight.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - ryuudou - 2013-01-28
I'm not going to read through four pages, but I definitely think the offensively racist stories should be removed — it's immature and uncivilized. Furthermore some of them personally offend me, and if I was still studying kanji I'd imagine I wouldn't want to study in a place where my very person is insulted and this is displayed for everyone to see. I'd move somewhere else.
I think a community focused initiative like this one should have moderation in place that prevents its very own users from feeling discriminated against. Some of you edgy children need to stay on whatever dump you hail from; there's a clear distinction between freedom of speech and destructive behavior in regards to the principles they represent in that when, for example, freedom of speech was established in America they were not promoting anarchy and "do whatever the fork you want because we free", but a paradigm to limit unjustified oppression.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Tzadeck - 2013-01-28
ryuudou Wrote:there's a clear distinction between freedom of speech and destructive behavior in regards to the principles they represent in that when, for example, freedom of speech was established in America they were not promoting anarchy and "do whatever the fork you want because we free", but a paradigm to limit unjustified oppression.Freedom of speech is a legal freedom, about how the government can't make laws that restrict speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, about whether a webpage should ban some stories.
ryuudou Wrote:Some of you edgy children need to stay on whatever dump you hail fromThanks for being such a helpful and enlightening person.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Katsuo - 2013-01-28
yudantaiteki Wrote:What does the "report" function do?The present system adds reports and presents that information, leaving the individual user with the choice of what action to take.
Reports usually occur when there is a mistake in the story (e.g. a primitive is wrong or omitted) or if someone finds it offensive.
It would presumably be possible to make an automatic system that hides or removes stories with a certain threshold of reports. It might also be possible to have a moderator check each reported story and decide whether to remove it. As can be seen in this thread though, many people object to someone else making these decisions for them.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - vix86 - 2013-01-28
The problem with censorship to "protect people." Is that someone is always going to be offended.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - IceCream - 2013-01-29
Tzadeck Wrote:Actually, hate speech IS illegal in a ton of countries. The idea that free speech means you can say exactly what you want regardless of how offensive it is is completely wrong.ryuudou Wrote:there's a clear distinction between freedom of speech and destructive behavior in regards to the principles they represent in that when, for example, freedom of speech was established in America they were not promoting anarchy and "do whatever the fork you want because we free", but a paradigm to limit unjustified oppression.Freedom of speech is a legal freedom, about how the government can't make laws that restrict speech. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, about whether a webpage should ban some stories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Tzadeck - 2013-01-29
IceCream Wrote:Actually, hate speech IS illegal in a ton of countries. The idea that free speech means you can say exactly what you want regardless of how offensive it is is completely wrong.Well, he said in America, (and I'm an American,) so I was talking about America. Hate speech is not illegal in America, and I don't think it should be. The idea that you can say exactly what you want regardless of how offensive it is is one of things that free speech means in America, in a legal sense. There will be social consequences but you can choose how much you care about them.
So no, it's not completely wrong. It could have been misinterpreted because I wasn't specific, but it's not wrong in the case I was talking about: America.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - IceCream - 2013-01-29
Well you can't defame people, at least. Why aren't people up in arms about that?
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - Tzadeck - 2013-01-29
IceCream Wrote:Well you can't defame people, at least. Why aren't people up in arms about that?True. I've not thought about it too much, because it seems like with a few exceptions defamation laws are doing more good than harm. Sometimes they are used frivilously however (Scientology?). (Anyway, defamation suits are usually only called upon in cases that involve straightforward facts. You can't make shit up about someone, basically. It's not about opinions.)
America has a weird thing about obscenity and indecency laws, however, which seem to be completely unconstitutional and ridiculous. Look up Lenny Bruce and George Carlin to see about that stupidity, and you can find a lot of academic literature that talks about how obscenity and indecency laws in the US have been used against feminism and to discriminate against homosexuals. Those laws, I think, should be revoked.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-01-29
People aren't up in arms about defamation in the U.S. because the bar is very high. To be guilty of criminal defamation, you have to be shown to have knowingly asserted falsehoods as fact, for the purpose of damaging the defamed person, and you have to have succeeded in damaging them - ie, causing them some real loss of opportunity to earn money or attain a position. Inserting phrases like 'I think', or 'I heard', or 'some people say' is enough that you can't be sued over it because you stated it as opinion or hearsay, not as fact. (not a lawyer and it's been years since I closely looked at a real defamation case, so I may be a little off on where the line is, but close enough to answer why people aren't upset about this particular infringement of freedom of speech.)
Also, not sure exactly what Tzadeck means about unconstitutional obscenity and indecency laws. The Miller Test sets pretty tight limits on what speech can be controlled; that is to say, it depends on:
Quote:whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards (not national standards, as some prior tests required), would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;What can be broadcast is pretty much arbitrarily controlled by the FCC, and the inability of the FCC to control non-broadcast works is why we keep having anti-indecency online laws created and then overturned in whole or in part. And of course, the MPAA rating system is *ahem* 'voluntary'. All the major theater chains require you to subject your work to the ratings board, but no law prevents you from producing, selling, or showing an unrated movie.
whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law; and
"whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."
Lewd behavior laws are another matter, and can still be used to discriminate against homosexuals who engage in public displays of affection, but that's not really a freedom of speech issue (though it's some kind of freedom issue, surely.)
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-29
Katsuo Wrote:It would presumably be possible to make an automatic system that hides or removes stories with a certain threshold of reports. It might also be possible to have a moderator check each reported story and decide whether to remove it. As can be seen in this thread though, many people object to someone else making these decisions for them.If there are clear guidelines for which stories will be removed (racist, incorrect primitives/meaning) then I wouldn't worry about the people who are posting rants about fascism, book burning, and censorship. If over 100 people report a story that's a sign that the community does not want the story there; the people who want to keep their racist stories can do so on their own computers. It cheapens the site's image and makes it hard to recommend the site (particularly someone in a position of authority like a teacher) when there are absolutely no controls whatsoever on what can be posted.
(Removing the wrong stories is arguably even more important since beginners should not be put in the position of deciding for themselves what information is correct or not -- if they can do that they don't need the site.)
The message board is moderated, so it seems obvious to extend that level of moderation to the stories as well. If people want to set up a no-holds-barren version of the site let them go do that on their own.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - vix86 - 2013-01-29
To add on to the thing about defamation. I believe there also has to be reasonable belief that the medium the defamation was published in had a wide enough audience. Usually this is covered under the "actual damages" part, but I have heard it come under consideration in some cases before (maybe when sueing under cases of "malicious intent"). Its the difference between posting something in a newspaper that many people read and posting it on a forum that no one reads.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - blankkor - 2013-01-29
yudantaiteki Wrote:If you're bringing up the "100 people reported it, therefore it's a sign no one wants it" then obviously you need to consider the 44 people who voted for it and obviously want it to stay because it either made them laugh or made it easier for them to remember that specific kanji. There's a sign a large portion of the community does want the story to stay.Katsuo Wrote:It would presumably be possible to make an automatic system that hides or removes stories with a certain threshold of reports. It might also be possible to have a moderator check each reported story and decide whether to remove it. As can be seen in this thread though, many people object to someone else making these decisions for them.If there are clear guidelines for which stories will be removed (racist, incorrect primitives/meaning) then I wouldn't worry about the people who are posting rants about fascism, book burning, and censorship. If over 100 people report a story that's a sign that the community does not want the story there; the people who want to keep their racist stories can do so on their own computers. It cheapens the site's image and makes it hard to recommend the site (particularly someone in a position of authority like a teacher) when there are absolutely no controls whatsoever on what can be posted.
yudantaiteki Wrote:(Removing the wrong stories is arguably even more important since beginners should not be put in the position of deciding for themselves what information is correct or not -- if they can do that they don't need the site.)And there we have it. Now that the gloves are off we can finally see that it's not only about the racist magnet story, but the hundreds, if not thousands of 'offensive' stories out there that, according to you need to be promptly removed so that "beginners" who obviously can't think for themselves and choose the story that works best for them without a big brother to guide them through will succeed. And hey, why give them the choice of looking at it and deciding for themselves? You've already made that choice for them.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-29
yudantaiteki Wrote:(Removing the wrong stories [i.e. the ones with incorrect primitives or wrong meanings] is arguably even more important since beginners should not be put in the position of deciding for themselves what information is correct or not -- if they can do that they don't need the site.)
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - blankkor - 2013-01-29
yudantaiteki Wrote:That statement is still invalid, seeing as everyone are making their own primitives and there's essentially no 'right' and 'wrong', only what you choose to use. And again, you're either under-estimating the comprehensive skills of a 'beginner' or you're purposely attempting to deceive people here. If Heisig calls Primitive A 'Primitive A', and a story calls it 'Primitive B', then it's clear to the beginner what's going on.yudantaiteki Wrote:(Removing the wrong stories [i.e. the ones with incorrect primitives or wrong meanings] is arguably even more important since beginners should not be put in the position of deciding for themselves what information is correct or not -- if they can do that they don't need the site.)
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-29
I'm not talking about cases where people have intentionally chosen a different primitive (like "spider man" for 糸). I would need to go back through old posts to find specifics, but there are stories in some kanji that are clearly unintentional mistakes either in the keyword of the kanji or the elements making it up.
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - blankkor - 2013-01-29
yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm not talking about cases where people have intentionally chosen a different primitive (like "spider man" for 糸). I would need to go back through old posts to find specifics, but there are stories in some kanji that are clearly unintentional mistakes either in the keyword of the kanji or the elements making it up.And you claim that a 'beginner' would not be able to notice these mistakes on what grounds exactly? Take the Kanji for "perfume"(芳), if one of the stories for it contained the primitive "flower" and another unrecognized primitive, would you assess that a beginner would not be able to tell that the bottom part was what the author meant by the unrecognized primitive and therefore should be told what to do instead?
Thinking about no longer using RTK by Heisig. - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-29
Yes, I am claiming beginners cannot always tell the difference between close primitives without help. If they can do that 100% accurately they don't need Heisig or this site.
Anyway, when I was looking back through old threads I found a previous discussion along these lines (in that case they were stories that involved graphic rape of Japanese women) and Fabrice said that he would remove them. In the end the poster of the stories removed them himself but Fabrice has already shown a willingness to remove certain stories above a common-sense threshhold of offensiveness. Hopefully that will continue with the example brought up here.