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Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2013-01-14
I am at the point where my grammar, kanji and my vocab brain bank is decent but if that fails, I have a electronic dictionary.
Textbooks teach the polite masu form, the formal humble and honorific, and the casual dictionary form. However, it is not casual enough. In anime and video games, I can understand most things I guess but it is the moderately casual speech that throws me off like slurring and contractions.
The most basic and common example is tabeteiru to tabeteru (eating). I learnt that a long time ago but it wasn't a textbook that told me about it. I had to find out myself, why was this gerund form missing an i?
Another example I haven't seen explained in textbooks are old men and ja in place of da. I think some textbooks mention the washi pronoun though.
More examples: kore wa to korya, sore wa to sorya, itai and sugoi to itee and sugee, janai to janee, sumimasen to suman, warui to warii.
If video game characters talk like textbooks, then I wouldn't need to make this topic. But they don't so how can I give myself a good casual speech foundation?
I am looking for something like the last few pages of Tae Kim's guide, except more material.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - TwoMoreCharacters - 2013-01-14
You're looking for different textbooks or services that teach casual speech?
I would just rely less on all the formal teaching material. It's interesting because it usually seems to be the other way around - the slang and the casual stuff comes easy and the refined speech is the hard part, because one tends to just plug in to the kind of sources that use fun and cool Japanese, and care less about textbooks. Almost nobody probably studies the examples like you mentioned (aside from reviewing custom srs cards) because their use and function come so naturally through encountering them so much.
If your "unorganized-casual-learning vs. textbook-learning" situation is in reverse to that, I'd just do more of the opposite and relax.
...waiting for someone to come with the obscure, super-rare colloquial examples from uncommon dialects to counter argue
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2013-01-14
TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:You're looking for different textbooks or services that teach casual speech?Anything that gets the job done. If I can use anki too, is a bonus.
Quote:Almost nobody probably studies the examples like you mentioned (aside from reviewing custom srs cards) because their use and function come so naturally through encountering them so much.That's the thing, if they're so frequently encountered, then they should have been mentioned in text books in the first place. Plenty of noobs get confused trying to look up words like tabeteru and shiteru, not knowing that the I can be dropped.
Casual nakya/nakucha are in some textbooks as examples off casual speech, I'm sure there are plenty more worthy inclusions.
I could go the read natural Japanese material route but I'll be forever unsure whether my guess that janee is slang of janai is correct, until I confirm elsewhere like online, but then that means it should've been in a textbook in the first place and there will be no uncertainty.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Marumaru - 2013-01-14
This is the 'closest' to that that I know.
http://anime-manga.jp/CharacterExpressions/
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Mushi - 2013-01-14
This is an odd and interesting mix of a variety of levels of casual speech.
"Tabeteru" is plenty polite, in my opinion. I don't think I've ever said "tabeteiru" in my life. I'm dining at a kotatsu, not Versailles.
"Ja" vs. "da". I'm surprised this is not generally in textbooks. In Clavell's Shogun, even Anjin-san knows this one, and switches to the more arrogant "ja" form when he confronts an unruly houseguest.
"Sugee", "janee". What are you, a kid?
Like Marumaru also mentioned, I've seen good online descriptions of a lot of these, apparently done by western otakus who want to help each other with comprehension.
That'll cover a lot of common stuff, but even if you SRS these or something, mangaka and anime writers do have an endless supply of tropes, stereotypes and verbal tics to make their characters distinctive. Occasionally, they just make stuff up. A good handle on the basics will help keep you from getting rattled when they do that.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - chamcham - 2013-01-14
So your grammar, vocab, and kanji are decent.
If you want to learn casual speech, download Japanese subtitles for Japanese TV dramas.
It's a really great resource because it is 100% dialogue and depending on what show
you're watching, can be very casual. Contains much of the casual dialogue you won't
find in textbooks.
Get Japanese subtitles here:
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/subtitles.php#Japanese
Current season J-drama summaries are here:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Currently_Airing_JDrama
Many shows have English subtitles (http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/subtitles.php).
So you can check both subtitles.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Tzadeck - 2013-01-14
The reality of Japanese casual speech and slang is that it is by dialect, and that in the media you basically get a version of Tokyo casual speech and a watered-down Osaka casual speech. I'm not sure either is really that close to reality (I know Kansai's casual speech much better than Tokyo's, and in real life it's a lot more varied than in the media). If you ever move to Japan you're going to have to learn to deal with the slang in that area, and there's no way to prepare for that as a learner.
(Actually, for learning Kansai Dialect I watched the show "Lovely Complex" a million times and read the manga. It is one of the few shows that is really done entirely in Kansai-Ben, and is pretty close to reality when it comes to how high schoolers speak in Osaka. It's a rarity. I grew to love it even though it's clearly written for a high-school-girl audience. The movie's awful though.)
I think though, that if you just go about understanding all standard Japanese grammar, and learning vocab, you can pick up the slang stuff overtime with exposure. I'm usually a much more formal learner, and I disagree strongly with people who say that you will figure grammar out just by exposure or will be able to output just through lots of input. But in my experience you can pick up slang and casual speech well enough with time, and there's no real other way to do it because the type of casual speech you'll encounter varies so much by what situations you find yourself in.
My advice is that if a sentence you see in a manga or something seems important or you're interested in it, but you need a better explanation of the slang, ask on the 'What's this word/phrase' thread. Over time you'll learn a lot.
My new girlfriend is from Ehime and her Japanese confuses me sometimes, since she only moved to Kansai a few months ago. So far I figured out that she sometimes ends sentences with けん (still not sure exactly what this means [edit: I guess this means that the sentence is giving a reason, similar to から--「暑いけんTシャツを着た。」]), and she uses 'とる' a lot instead of ている (so, for her 'I'm eating' is often たべとる). She has a weird way of asking questions that confuses me sometimes, but I can't figure out why yet. You just try your best and deal with it.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - chamcham - 2013-01-14
Tzadeck Wrote:The reality of Japanese casual speech and slang is that it is by dialect, and that in the media you basically get a version of Tokyo casual speech and a watered-down Osaka casual speech. I'm not sure either is really that close to reality (I know Kansai's casual speech much better than Tokyo's, and in real life it's a lot more varied than in the media). If you ever move to Japan you're going to have to learn to deal with the slang in that area, and there's no way to prepare for that as a learner.Lovely Complex is based on the manga Love★Com (ラブ★コン)by Aya Nakahara.
(Actually, for learning Kansai Dialect I watched the show "Lovely Complex" a million times and read the manga. It is one of the few shows that is really done entirely in Kansai-Ben, and is pretty close to reality when it comes to how high schoolers speak in Osaka. It's a rarity. I grew to love it even though it's clearly written for a high-school-girl audience. The movie's awful though.)
I think though, that if you just go about understanding all standard Japanese grammar, and learning vocab, you can pick up the slang stuff overtime with exposure. I'm usually a much more formal learner, and I disagree strongly with people who say that you will figure stuff out grammar just by example or will be able to output just through lots of input. But in my experience you can pick up slang and casual speech well enough with time, and there's no real other way to do it because the type of casual speech you'll encounter varies so much by what situations you find yourself in.
My advice is that if a sentence you see in a manga or something seems important or you're interested in it, but you need a better explanation of the slang, ask on the 'What's this word/phrase' thread. Over time you'll learn a lot.
My new girlfriend is from Ehime and her Japanese confuses me sometimes, since she only moved to Kansai a few months ago. So far I figured out that she sometimes ends sentences with けん (still not sure exactly what this means), and she uses 'とる' a lot instead of ている (so, for her 'I'm eating' is often たべとる). She has a weird way of asking questions that confuses me sometimes, but I can't figure out why yet. You just try your best and deal with it.
It lasted 17 volumes and ran from 2001-2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Com
So you can read the manga for more Kansai-ben.
If you want to learn Japanese dialects, you can watch "asadora", which are "morning drama". Basically, they're family TV drama. Very sanitized and child-friendly. So you might not find so much modern slang. NHK makes asadora and every show focuses on a single dialect (not just Kansai-ben, but also rarer dialects from inaka). Each episode is only 15 minutes and they air 5-6 days a week.
Here is an asadora that takes place in Osaka and uses Kansai-ben:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Carnation
English subtitles are here:
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_105405.htm
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2013-01-15
Marumaru Wrote:This is the 'closest' to that that I know.Thanks, I like it. Actually, I'm looking for common expressions as well so that page is useful.
http://anime-manga.jp/CharacterExpressions/
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - midonnay - 2013-01-17
the best book i`ve found that focuses on spoken communication is
Nameraka nihongo kaiwa published by ALC
it has various topics including contractions, particle ommissions and appropiate styles for different situations.
do note that there isn,t much english except in the chapter introductions so may not be suitable for beginners
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - undead_saif - 2013-01-18
qwertyytrewq Wrote:The most basic and common example is tabeteiru to tabeteru (eating). I learnt that a long time ago but it wasn't a textbook that told me about it. I had to find out myself, why was this gerund form missing an i?This is mentioned in Tae Kim's Guide in the Essential Grammar section. TK explains casual forms and include abbreviations like this one.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - jessui - 2013-01-18
I was also going to suggest the book that midonnay said above:
http://amzn.to/Uzvzxt
It goes over all of the shortened forms and casual contractions that you'll run into in everyday dialogue. A really valuable resource.
For audio, there are hundreds of JapanesePod101 lessons with super casual speech.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - yudantaiteki - 2013-01-18
Are you looking for a resource to understand speech forms in anime/video games, or are you looking for casual speech forms for you to actually use?
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2013-01-18
I just finished reading all three volumes of Learning Japanese with Manga and there were a few useful lessons on abbreviations and contractions in casual speech.
undead_saif Wrote:Yeah, I know Tae Kim's guide explains it, I mentioned Tae Kim at the bottom of my post. As far as grammar like that goes, Tae Kim is also an exception, which is why his guide is popular. I also learned the missing i gerund form in 2005 or something, did Tae Kim's guide even exist then?qwertyytrewq Wrote:The most basic and common example is tabeteiru to tabeteru (eating). I learnt that a long time ago but it wasn't a textbook that told me about it. I had to find out myself, why was this gerund form missing an i?This is mentioned in Tae Kim's Guide in the Essential Grammar section. TK explains casual forms and include abbreviations like this one.
yudantaiteki Wrote:Are you looking for a resource to understand speech forms in anime/video games, or are you looking for casual speech forms for you to actually use?The former.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2014-06-01
I'm bumping this thread because forumers here have recently been complaining about causal/colloquial speech in manga like Naruto and One Piece being hard to decipher because they don't get taught in conventional textbooks.
Apparently, you can "magically" understand these types of causal speech/grammar through repeated exposure. I'm more inclined to disagree: you must have been made aware of its existence beforehand or it must be taught after you see it.
Argue away and/or stay on topic and suggest more learning resources.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Bokusenou - 2014-06-01
I think http://www.erin.ne.jp has some casual language parts, if I remember correctly.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Zgarbas - 2014-06-01
qwertyytrewq Wrote:I'm bumping this thread because forumers here have recently been complaining about causal/colloquial speech in manga like Naruto and One Piece being hard to decipher because they don't get taught in conventional textbooks.I don't know how much I've *studied* casual speech. As in, I do remember seeing small mentions that ておくー＞とく and a few other examples in my textbooks, but other than the occasional mentions I've never focused on this aspect. You really *do* pick them up since usually they're very similar to their textbook equivalents, to the point where you realize that たべている is just so unnatural to say. However, I've not had that much problem with casual vocab such as with other aspects of casual speech (早口、mumbling, not as much of a clear diffference between words). Feminine/masculine talk is an entirely different concept, though...
Apparently, you can "magically" understand these types of causal speech/grammar through repeated exposure. I'm more inclined to disagree: you must have been made aware of its existence beforehand or it must be taught after you see it.
Argue away and/or stay on topic and suggest more learning resources.
You can pretty much catch most contractions since they're so common, especially in Shounen since they're almost always the same. You can tell who learned from anime since they use unnatural casual speech patterns which happen there. I wouldn't learn them intentionally though, since foreigners make enough mistakes regarding correct language use (feminine/masculine/local/politness level when you don't have a clearly set relationship), you don't want to get anime speech habits... You do start understanding them after a while.
Though, tbh, I'm an ignorant when it comes to such things. I can't even tell if someone is speaking です・ます or casual to me. I just genuinely don't notice. It sounds like the kind of thing that shouldn't happen, and yet here we are.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Inny Jan - 2014-06-01
Zgarbas Wrote:I can't even tell if someone is speaking です・ます or casual to me. I just genuinely don't notice.Interesting, because it works differently for me. I do notice when my colleagues talk with です・ます調 to me or between themselves, and who is using which. I also notice that I tend to use です・ます調 even though I don’t really have intention of doing that. It takes some mental effort to stick with えらそうに傲然のだ・である調.
But then again, I don’t/didn’t watch anime that much.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Ash_S - 2014-06-01
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apparently, you can "magically" understand these types of causal speech/grammar through repeated exposure. I'm more inclined to disagree: you must have been made aware of its existence beforehand or it must be taught after you see itI'm inclined to agree with the proposition that you can understand it from repeated exposure, seeing as that's what I did myself. I picked it up, often without realizing, from chatrooms/skype/TV/some manga. Chatting with all the 中学生 on chaberi.com everyday for a month took me from 私の名前はアッシュです。今日本を読みました。 to casual convo's in which the other party wouldn't believe I'm not Japanese. It's not for me to tell other people what to do, but it seems strange to study a language - and casual speech of all things!! - from a textbook. I propose learning through exposure to real Japanese is more fun and results in a deeper understanding.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - kameden - 2014-06-01
They come naturally in the same way learning any sort of grammar would become natural after enough exposure to it, but I don't think that's a very fast or fun way of learning to be honest. I wish I had a slang grammar book when I started to read, but I had to do it the long way. Some are intuitive like ている > てる, but some things like てんじゃねぇ being a command form are a lot harder. Not to mention accents. I'm surprised there isn't more resources on this.
Marumaru Wrote:This is the 'closest' to that that I know.This is helpful, I wish I had this a year ago.
http://anime-manga.jp/CharacterExpressions/
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - mc962 - 2014-06-02
Japanese the Manga Way had a slightly higher than average amount of phrases it talked about with very casual speech/slang (at least compared the to textbooks I first started with). It still didn't have as much, but it helped clear a few phrases up that I wasnt clear about
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - Betelgeuzah - 2014-06-02
Tbh casual speech is hard not only because some grammar structures get shortened but because there seems to be a lot more ambiguity in an already ambiguous language. More often than not I "get to" parse text that has very little information in it on the first sight, plus the little information there is can't be directly associated with English words. What doesn't make it any easier is that the few sounds Japanese has are used in so many situations with totally different meanings (not only depending on the words themselves, but the context surrounding it). You remove a syllable or add one and the phrase means something else (of course it's all in hiragana). This is a problem in "normal" Japanese too but there little to no grammar is omitted and the sentences are usually longer with more information in them.
It is honestly the hardest part of understanding the language for me. I'll look up some examples one of these days to show what I mean.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - balloonguy - 2014-06-03
Nihongonomori has recently been putting out videos in a series titled ちょっと危ない日本語 that covers this topic
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOht-wwIikkO1Mm4CZaqMSG9k
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - jimeux - 2014-06-04
I think manga is your best bet. I remember picking up common, "standard" contractions from Doraemon, like 〜とく、〜てんの、〜たげる、〜てく, 〜けりゃ、こった etc relatively naturally. You can read at your own pace and have a lot of context to help you. Detroit Metal City is probably the most vulgar, slang-filled series I've read.
You really need to get used to deciphering strange contractions if you read manga. Often characters are given whacky speaking styles or use dialects for effect. Try Black Jack for an extreme example.
There's little replacement for a friend or two of a similar age and personality though. Attempting to use slang without much familiarity with it can be awkward, but after hearing certain phrases in specific situations I feel like I can do it naturally. A substitute might be a chatty variety show or podcast where people are just being themselves.
Very casual speech learning resource (website, book) - qwertyytrewq - 2014-06-04
jimeux Wrote:You really need to get used to deciphering strange contractions if you read manga.No doubt. The question however is: how?