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Introducing philosophy - Tori-kun - 2012-12-16
Has anyone ressources/books on how to get oneself introduced to philosophy? I am particulary interested in nihilism, so I stopped by a book shop and grabbed a random book written by Nietzsche ("Also sprach Zarathustra") and I'm struggling now understanding what he wants to bring accross, although I'm reading it in German
If anyone can point out how to get familiar with the historical context and the main ideas of his philosophy in an easier way, I will be very thankful! I was thinking about ordering "Introducing Nietsche" (Penguin Publisher) on Amazon... it looks very down-to-earth to me.
Introducing philosophy - ファブリス - 2012-12-16
Have you read the classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Robert M. Pirsig? It's a "philosophical novel", and a nice story of a man and his son going on a road trip across America. He touches on many philosophy subjects.
Introducing philosophy - Stansfield123 - 2012-12-16
If you really want to learn about philosophy (not just nihilism, or some trendy topic like Zen), what you need is Wilhelm Windelband's "A history of philosophy". Volume 1 is Greek, Roman, and Medieval and Vol. 2 Renaissance, Enlightenment, Modern.
It was published in 1901, and it's by far the clearest and most honest look at philosophy you will find.
It's not in copyright. Free in various formats, in English: http://archive.org/details/historyofphiloso007974mbp; I'm sure you can find the original German version too.
Introducing philosophy - Zgarbas - 2012-12-16
Ugh. Nietzsche was a cook that was too full of himself if you ask me. Basically his entire work is one big flowery add-on to his idea that humans are essentially Dionysian though civilisation is Appolonian. And it goes on and on and on and on and on and on...
Actually, from personal experience, aside from the lightest of philosophers I never got much from their books. Too few ideas flowered up to fit entire novels worth of content. I'd just stick with reading a textbook with their basic ideas.
Also, I really hate the whole pop-culture equivalence between mental disorders and intelligence. Fairly sure 3/4th the reason nietzsche is taken seriously is because people seem to think that being insane is equal to having some sort of hidden knowledge. And let's not get into the fact that he was this huge Wagner worshipper, but as soon as Wagner realized he was a looney and stopped being his friend he made a big deal about how Wagner violates the true nature of music with his appollonian principles...Seriously. Batshit.
I should mention that I do feel sorry for the modifications his work suffered from which made him sound antisemitic and served to support antisemitism. Always a shame to see someone's work being used for the wrong purposes.
Introducing philosophy - ColdCore - 2012-12-16
I'll second Tori-kun that you might want to get started with a general introduction to philosophy itself. You can have a look at his book and see whether you like it, as it's free after all.
I personally recommend Sophie's World as a light introduction:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie%27s_World
It doesn't mention Nietzsche, but it could help you better understand his ideas afterwards.
Introducing philosophy - uisukii - 2012-12-16
The Stanford Encyclopedia online provides a nice overview of a vast range of historical philosophical discourse and related themes:
http://plato.stanford.edu/
Why, um, "Nihilism", if you don't mind me asking? I don't mind to be a smart-arse, but it sound a little ironic to "take an interest" in Nihilism, especially in respect to Nietzsche, who more or less described (accurately, in my opinion) Christianity to be the ultimate form of Nihilism at the time, in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", essentially a (somewhat rambling) narrative against nihilism, in favour of a form of moral existentialism.
Nietzsche will tie you up for a while, though. A lot of his famous works are available pretty cheap on Amazon, are widely translated, and -if you don't mind the writing style- has an interesting take on a few things.
The English translation of Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" is similar to the writing style of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", but a lot, um... accessible? Shorter? Well, it might be something you could look at to see if you're comfortable with the style, before buying something a little heavier.
I have a friend who finished a university degree in philosophy, around a year ago, actually. From our discussions on philosophy what I can say is that you have any interest in the subject, don't study it at university, lol. It seems like he's taken away very little, if any, philosophy and introspective value and instead more or less a "this is this, this is why I'm right about X, due to Y", etc.
Very little to do with worldly knowledge and wisdom at all, if any.
Introducing philosophy - IceCream - 2012-12-16
Heidegger, Being & Time. It's all you really need.
Introducing philosophy - uisukii - 2012-12-16
IceCream Wrote:Heidegger, Being & Time. It's all you really need.That's a pretty rough "introduction". Like a teenager learning to drive in a high powered sports car.
Introducing philosophy - vileru - 2012-12-16
You begin with Plato. I suggest Euthyphro.
Introducing philosophy - Tzadeck - 2012-12-16
http://www.mrbrodie.com/Philosophy/Nietzsche_files/Russell%20on%20Nietzsche%20Hist%20of%20West%20Phil.pdf
Here's Bertrand Russell on Nietzsche in his History of Western Philosophy. For some reason it's highlighted a bunch.
Anyway, I read a bunch of Nietzsche in college and eventually came to think of him as Russell does.
Introducing philosophy - undead_saif - 2012-12-17
Before diving into different philosophies, did you learn or are confident about thinking philosophically? There are books and courses about philosophies, and others about philosophizing, you need to start with the later.
I recommend "Death" course from Yale, it's more on how to think philosophically and build an argument than the specific topic of life and death.
Never heard about "philosophical novels" before, that would be a blast!! Any other recommendations?
Thanks ファブリス
Interestingly, I've never learned what Nihilism is, despite the fact that I have common ideas with it.
Introducing philosophy - Tzadeck - 2012-12-17
"Sophie's World" is also a philosophy novel, and some friends who were new to philosophy and read it said they loved it. I, however, didn't really like it.
Introducing philosophy - undead_saif - 2012-12-17
I want to add a word of warning, philosophy is not easy in the way that it provokes ideas and thoughts that cannot be unthought!
By reading or thinking on some topics you can open your eyes on things you've never considered before, which is a good thing, but there's no turning back, you'll have to live with the doubt or confusion until you see your way through and you'll change, sometimes in ways you've never expected.
Although I think of philosophy as something good and I enjoy it, sometimes I really envy the simple, living-as-is mind!
About the novels, I will surely check both of them out.
Introducing philosophy - Zlarp - 2012-12-17
uisukii Wrote:But what a car man. And it's not expensive money wise. What teenager wouldn't want that?IceCream Wrote:Heidegger, Being & Time. It's all you really need.That's a pretty rough "introduction". Like a teenager learning to drive in a high powered sports car.
Okay, well, they'll have to build it themselves, but you gotta work if you want the nice ride to get the chicks, eh?
Introducing philosophy - dizmox - 2012-12-17
Wouldn't a true nihilist dismiss philosophical discussion in particular as nebulous and inconsequential?
Introducing philosophy - uisukii - 2012-12-17
undead_saif Wrote:sometimes I really envy the simple, living-as-is mind!There are philosophical world-views which could be described as such. Both "simple" and "living-as-is" in respect to the "mind" are and have been the subject of philosophical discussion both inside the shelter of academia and outside in the real world, for hundreds of hundreds of years.
Introducing philosophy - Tori-kun - 2012-12-17
vileru Wrote:You begin with Plato. I suggest Euthyphro.Oh gosh, I read this and I realised how much I suck at logic T-T I read Russel's comment on Euthyphron as well and I had to reread his comment both in German and English, but still don't understand everything quite well. This is so upsetting >_>
I feel like my brain is being mixed in a blender when reading stuff like that lol
Introducing philosophy - undead_saif - 2012-12-17
Tori-kun Wrote:I feel like my brain is being mixed in a blender when reading stuff like that lolThen may I ask why are you exploring this subject?
Introducing philosophy - Tori-kun - 2012-12-17
I find it quite challenging, that's all. When it comes to philosophy or all these big questions in life (sense?) I don't know an answer and I think digging deeper into philosophy might be enriching and epiphanic at some point - or not. I feel dumb not knowing anything about Plato, Nietzsche etc.
Introducing philosophy - ファブリス - 2012-12-17
Actually as Alan Watts said in one of his talks, most contemporary philosophy is no longer about the big questions. Philosophers have sort of given up in favor of the scientific understanding of the universe, and the scientific methodology... and their careers.
If you are interested more in the "soteriological" aspect of philosophy, ie. when it's about finding peace of mind and answering the big questions... Greg Goode has a very nice site on the subject of "emptiness" http://www.emptiness.co and has a few articles introducing Western philosophy works as a kind of bridge between Western thought and Eastern teachings.
http://www.emptiness.co/bestwesternbooks
I wrote to him last year asking about time and he also suggested Heidegger's "Being & Time" that IceCream mentioned. I haven't got around to reading it though. Back then I was into Alan Watts and found his talks very helpful and they really blew a hole through my rigid thinking. And I mean.. I was already fairly "open minded" but the irony is however I defined myself was very rigid. I still had (and have) a huge ego.
What you're looking for I think is realizations. The big questions don't need books to be answered, but they need a lot of intensity and honesty.
I had a realization a year or two ago about truth and meaning. It's probably explained in very fancy ways in philosophy, but the irony is that it struck me when I was in a period deeply involved in UFO and conspiracy sites.
It hit me as I was hunched over my keyboard at 3am in the glare of the computer screen, looking at a blurry black and white photo on a UFO site... and suddenly my heart started pounding really hard and I was really scared. In a brief moment I sort of realized (and I'm just trying to translate here), that as much as I didn't know with certainty if any of these things were true, it was the same for everything else! I felt like everything I knew was going to collapse. I didn't lose my mind... but that may have been a good thing, who knows. A switch has flipped and ever since I lost interest in UFOs and crop circles and the new agey sites like RealitySandwich, but not because they are "not true", but because it became clear that nothing else is true either.
It's a big relief to no longer feel like I have to check bullets on a long list of things to do to have a meaningful life... but as I found out it's just one realization, and the search is not over. And as undead_saif said it could leave you in an interesting ... but disconcerting place.. depending what realizations you had.
Just be very careful when reading "nihilism". You might read into it what you want to read, rather than what the author tried to convey. It could be argued to be the same for all philosophy writings but when it's about meaningless existence and such, it can be deceiving. I find that having some meditation experience or a Vipassana retreat is very helpful because when you lose heart, you have a new medicine.. you come back to what is.. your breath or whatever.
Like Henry Rollins said.. a hundred pounds is a hundred pounds. It never lies to you. :p
Introducing philosophy - vileru - 2012-12-17
Avoid Being and Time unless already acquainted with the Pre-Socratics, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, and Nietzsche.
As for the comments about Nietzsche, beware. The comments here should be compared with those of a Nietzsche scholar.
Introducing philosophy - Zgarbas - 2012-12-18
Ah yes, Nietzsche scholars. Lovely people. I love their lectures that go on and on about the importance of Salome and Wagner, doing that whole "his life was important because it sucked, and not at all cause he was, you know, mentall unstable".
Introducing philosophy - EratiK - 2012-12-18
Please don't overgeneralize Zgarbas. I've nerver met a single Nietzsche scholar like you describe. My favorite being Giorgio Colli.
Introducing philosophy - Zgarbas - 2012-12-18
Soooo, the fact that basically half his bio in most books I've read by/about him are filled with the great importance of Salome and Wagner, and various personal things, are purely exceptions?
This isn't a Nietzsche thing, though. It just irks me how usually when discussing an artist the good parts of his/her life are always highlighted whereas the bad parts are ignored or idealized. Nietzsche really was a cook =/.
Introducing philosophy - EratiK - 2012-12-18
Hold up, you're talking about biographies now, I thought you were talking about scholars that use the biographical approach (common in literature) to explain his ideas, which I feel is kind of pointless in philosophy (but happens). Of course a bio is going to be about his life. But Nietzsche's life is by far the least interesting thing about him.