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How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - dukelexon - 2007-12-16
...once they've actually TRIED it? As far as I can tell ... they can't, because I've only ever really seen serious criticism of the method from people who never really have. Not seriously, anyway, and not in the way that Heisig himself recommends.
I've been a long-time member of one of those "other" online Japanese language resources ... a for-pay one. I've used it off-and-on, depending on my motivation/mood levels, and sometimes lurk around their forums. A couple of weeks ago, I read a post by a surprised (yet enthusiastic) member who had just barely tried the Heisig method for himself. (He also recommended Fabrice's site for review, and is a member here.) His initial claim of "50 a day" was a shocking number to me, but I also found it irresistably seductive.
I, like him, had heard numerous things about Heisig ... much of it not good. The whole Heisig concept has been treated with such distaste by so many alleged "elite" members of the Japanese-learning community, well ... I steered well clear of it.
And now, I hate myself for doing that. I'm also kind of ticked off at the ignorant smugness of others that scared me away from Heisig to begin with, years ago. They did me a genuine disservice, by speaking so authoritatively about something they knew so little about.
In the very same thread on that forum that inspired me to try Heisig out, this was recently posted (by someone who'd only "heard" of Heisig, of course):
Quote:...I'm not going to say Heisig's method is the wrong way to go about it for everyone. I can definitely see how it could be an inspiration to those who are just starting out or have had difficulty memorizing kanji in the past, because it gives one the feeling you are actually making progress. Personally though, I really can't recommend this to anybody...Okay ... it's controversial. I get it. Let's rely on my own experience to make a final judgement. What happened, once I actually tried Heisig? Did I start down the slippery slope of never becoming literate in Japanese?
NO.
Did I become convinced that I would never need to study kanji again, and would only ever need to know vague meanings + stroke order?
NO.
Did I bring shame and dishonor upon the Japanese Ministry of Education, for accomplishing in a few days (at least halfway) what it takes an entire year for their students to learn?
NO.
What happened was, I walked away with 30 brand new kanji in 90 minutes. NINETY minutes. I discovered that not only was this guy's estimate of being able to reach fifty new kanji a day possible ... I realize that if you were truly throwing your back into it full time, fifty-a-day might be something of a conservative estimate.
That was exactly two weeks ago today. I've learned the writing and meaning of almost 700 new kanji since then. Now, here is where I think the naysayers against Heisig REALLY fall short in actually trying to say there's something wrong with learning this way.
1) It's not as though I would have learned 700 kanji "completely" in that time using some other method. This isn't time that I've 'wasted" when I could've been studying the same "kanji" properly. This is 700 kanji I wouldn't have obtained using any other method that I can think of. This is me being 700 kanji wealthier, which I would not have been otherwise.
2) Just because I'm only familiar with a vague, unnuanced meaning for each kanji, it does not mean I intend to END things there. Readings are going to come later, and because I've already got the meaning and writing down ... they're also going to come a lot easier and faster.
3) No, I'm not frustrated that I can't actually fully "read" the kanji yet. How would knowing 20 kanji "completely" help me read any higher a percentage of a Japanese newspaper than knowing 700 kanji "partially"? Explain that to me. That delayed-reward conundrum is something that is common across ALL kanji-learning methods. If you're dealing with non-furigana Japanese text ... you either know most-or-all of the kanji inside, or you just can't read it.
To me, that means the solution is to try to learn faster ... not slower. Being "completely" literate in 100 kanji isn't going to help you with a Japanese novel. Being "somewhat" literate in 2,000 kanji on the other hand, will get you a lot closer. You're also NOT excluded from becoming "completely" literate in those kanji as your studies progress.
I know that these kinds of threads have been posted here before, and I know this same discussion has been repeated ad nauseum, but ... even in the last few weeks, as I muse over the anti-Heisig rumblings that are STILL all over the place ... I can't help but grow frustrated. Why?
Because the ONLY people, the ONLY ones, that seem to be so deadset against learning the jouyou in this way seem to be people that have never tried it, and just don't like the IDEA of Heisig. For those that have actually given Heisig a go, and have actually APPLIED his exact technique as laid out in the foreword ... I've never heard anything but a glowing review.
There is NO strong argument against learning to write and recognize 700 kanji over the course of 2 weeks. NONE. I doubt I could've done that much in a YEAR, the way I was going before.
Were it not for that brave member at the other site that was willing to stick out his head (leaving it open to be snapped off) to spread the word to those that would listen ... I might have 15-20 new kanji now, as opposed to 700. Yes, I may remember a handful of readings for that 20 kanji, and yes ... I may even recognize a couple of compounds. My "knowledge" of how to write them, however, would have been shaky as all Hell ... and I would've been drilling them day after day, just trying not to forget them.
Before, I was a skeptical side-liner on Heisig. Now, if I see criticism against it, I'm going to straight-out ask them how they can argue against 700 in two weeks. I really can't think of any way that a person can claim that knowing 20 kanj with readings is better than knowing 700 without them. I can't think of a way that knowing all of the joyou over the course of a couple of months is somehow inferior to taking a couple of years to learning the same, just because you insist on using "real" methods. I can't think of a reason, and I'm betting they can't, either.
Sorry for the rant. Thanks for reading, to all those that did.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Nukemarine - 2007-12-16
There are legitimate complaints against Heisig. Here are some that I think have validity
1. Heisig insists on you learning the entire Jouyou list. Unfortunately, you cannot use RTK if you want to do it by grade. Now, you can apply the Heisig method by grade and it will still work.
For example, you'll present the first 40 grade 1 kanji in the Heisig order and also introduce the primitives and primitive kanji that make up that list. I can see the person that produces a book in that manner having a best seller on his hands. In fact, it could make teaching children the Kanji much easier.
I proferred the idea of a RTK Lite for this website and it seemed well received. Heck, given the correct data base, you could theoretically alter the keyword order in any manner you desire.
2, Keyword choices: It's legitimate to say not all keywords chosen are the best. I cannot fathom why he used Private for Watashi.
3. Defining kanji and the keyword: A failing here is that you may not know what that keyword really meant. Heisig did not offer any definition of the word or of the kanji in many cases to ensure your story elicits the correct idea.
Yeah, the method works. That I will not argue. The above is more about the presentation of that method.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - dukelexon - 2007-12-16
I'll grant that there are certain elements of Heisig's advice regarding how to apply the method that might be improved upon, but the vast majority of the criticism against Heisig lies with the idea of the method itself.
Thus, let me state it a little differently ... the speed and efficiency at which one learns using Heisig is often something that is marginalized into obilivion by those who would favor rote memorization, or an all-or-nothing approach. There are those that seem viciously determined to put forth the idea that learning using the METHOD itself is not only inadvisable ... it's outright detrimental to your studies. The counter-argument I posited was in asking those critics to explain the detriment in learning the writing and meaning of 50 kanji in a few hours.
It's that mindset specifically that has me so frustrated. There are "dodgy" keywords that Heisig himself picked (yeah, I wrinkled my nose when I got to "decameron," like everyone ... and how we get "drown" out of something more like "sinking" is beyond me) ... but I think that's something else entirely.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - johnzep - 2007-12-16
Nukemarine Wrote:2, Keyword choices: It's legitimate to say not all keywords chosen are the best. I cannot fathom why he used Private for Watashi.私立学校
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - johnzep - 2007-12-16
But yeah, some keywords are a stretch.
Also, ambiguous or nearly identical keywords are also a bit of a problem. Sort / Sort of thing...I / me / self...imitate / mimic
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Codexus - 2007-12-16
You're absolutely right, dukelexon! The speed at which you can learn is really what makes Heisig so great. But usually when there is a discussion about it, that part is quickly forgotten as people start arguing how useful it is to know how to write a kanji if you don't know its readings or whether the keywords are well chosen.
But it's really the part that is the most important. I was finally convinced to try it when I read about people who claimed to have learned the content of the book in two months.
Heisig works, that's all that should matter.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Nukemarine - 2007-12-16
However, what we REALLY need are those that used Heisig's methods then went on to become reasonably fluent in Japanese.
Yeah, you learn the basic meaning and writing of 2000 kanji. However, are you now able to apply that to learning Japanese. If not, you've just spent alot of time learning a parlour trick that few outside of Japan will really care about.
For the detractors in the other forums, not too much you can do with them. There's some heavy hatred of RTK on TJP for example. However, I did get the above criticism from there. It's even gotten me from saying I learned 2000 kanji to saying I learned a basic meaning of 2000 Kanji and how to write them.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - vosmiura - 2007-12-16
I've tried to discuss Heisig on other forums, but its never going to be accepted. People are too 'invested' in their own learning methods, and they get sensitive when you tell them there are better ways. Also what is funny is many of them preach "best of breed" learning methods, but don't actually practice what they preach.
For myself, I almost finished the book and I'm extatic with what its done for my Japanese learning ability. Its not that I've become fluent, but simply I can see in my learning every day, kanji has turned from a barrier to reading into a reading aid for me.
I'm on vacation in Japan, and my reading ability has rocketed since the last time I was here, and its mainly thanks to RTK1. Take it from me, its a very worth while step not only to learn how to read but to learn Japanese in general.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - meolox - 2007-12-16
I can't agree more with the points outline by dukelexon. I was once a naysayer of the Heisig technique, I had attempted to learn via the Heisig method but after doing 20 from the sample PDF I gave up and laughed inside at the thought of it ever being useful.
I returned to rote memorization and spent 2(3?) months learning the JLPT4 Kanji list via rote memorization, but this was only with daily drilling to ensure I didn't forget, after becoming comfortable with JLPT4 as a whole including Kanji I decided to move onto JLPT3, being the hardest wall to overcome I decided to tackle the 3kyuu kanji first, I spent 3 weeks and only learned 20, this wasn't what made me stop and do Heisig it was the fact I was forgetting how to write them, I could recognise them in print but could not put them to paper from mind.
After finding this site I gave Heisig a second chance and haven't looked back.
I was once the person on a forum who said "Heisig doesn't work for me and I don't recommend it, it's stupid." this isn't true I was just impatient and never really gave it a chance.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - nac_est - 2007-12-16
Apart from the arguments of dukelexon, with whom I agree, I don't think there's much use in spending a lot of time arguing about whether the method is good or it isn't. Personally, the only thing I pay attention to when looking for something are the recommendations of people who have experience in that thing.
I don't care about the negative criticism, not because it is unimportant in itself, but because it's usually just some idiot who didn't (REALLY) try the thing in question. There may be cases in which the criticism is balanced and mature, but it's usually difficult to distinguish.
If I'm not sure, I give the thing a try myself, without paying heed to the naysayers. Now you can call me close-minded!
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - billyclyde - 2007-12-16
Dukelexon, I think you're on target. People's criticisms (esp. the dogmatic/fanatic ones) say more about them than the method. They think it's silly, or not tough enough, or they've been brought up to please their teachers & elders so much that they just can't bear to go against their well-meaning, ineffective teaching.
Really, these critics are just bad at being objective. They can't see it working for themselves (or they didn't need it, b/c it "clicked" for them) so they therefore think NO ONE should EVER use it. If you don't need it, fine, but don't tell me what I need. Yikes!
Glad I don't hang out on those messboards. Until I found RevtK, every Japanese learning community I'd ever been in, human or internet, was full of showoffs, braggarts, and jerks. I like it better here.
[Edit: ok, Yamasa was fun, too.]
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Biene - 2007-12-16
I was totally oblivious to the discussions going on about the book, when I bought it.
The decision for buying the book fell when I found a review on amazon where someone said that he finished it but also made a point about the fact that it was by no means easy. It was the only positive review that sounded truthfull to me.
There are way too many book-reviews and comments out there that brag about the fact that people learned "500 Kanji in a week" and then there is silence and almost no report that states that they went on and finished RTK1. I guess that would annoy me after some time too.
Nukemarine made another good point (appart from the common keyword-discussion). It seems that a lot of students who study Japanology give Heisig a try and are quickly frustrated. They have quite some pressure on learn the reading, writing, and meaning for certain Kanji in their 1st, 2nd, etc. semester, so they very often ignore the comments Heisig makes and try to bend the book to their needs with no regards to the way the method works. In the end it's - as always - the fault of the method and not their own...
Edit: Nukemarine's good point beeing that it would be helpful if someone went and addapted the method to the Kanji by grades...
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Floatingweed5 - 2007-12-16
I stumbled across another web page recently and was really shocked at how abrasive the forums were. Heisig was a particular target, but many of the other discussions I looked at had an argumentative or swaggering tone to them too.
I can understand why people who have dedicated a lot of time and energy to learning this language get annoyed when some newbie pops up claiming to have mastered 2000 Kanji in 2 months. It's not true to say that you have mastered the Japanese writing system after Heisig any more than saying that you have mastered the English writing system by reciting A-Z. But to deny any value in the method is arrogant, ignorant, nonsense.
The reason I like this forum is that it is populated by open minded individuals who have a positive approach to overcoming the difficulties of learning this language. It's invaluable. I'm in no way fluent, but I can assure you that this is not a waste of time. Everyone reaches a point in their studies where the Kanji brick wall becomes an obstacle which cannot be ignored. Heisig is an excellent first step in breaking that wall down.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - ファブリス - 2007-12-16
dukelexon Wrote:I know that these kinds of threads have been posted here before, and I know this same discussion has been repeated ad nauseum, but ...There has been a few topics on this subject but not that much. It's not so surprising since members of the site are actually using the method, although people can also register to participate in the community forum who have used other methods in the past.
I think it's a waste of time to try and convince people who won't hear, over time people find their ways I guess. Hopefully the Google powers that be will help those looking for solutions and open to other possibilities find their way to helpful resources including this site/forum.
But I do appreciate that you didn't point fingers directly at another site/forum, as this wouldn't be helpful for the discussion, thanks.
PS: that said, I liked your first argument, didn't think of it this way before.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - sheetz - 2007-12-16
I suspect you're going to run into a lot of attitude at virtually any forum devoted to learning a single language. What I like about the How-to-learn-any-language forum is that since it's populated with a large number of self-taught polygots you'll find there are proponents of a wide variety of learning methods, some of which are quite unorthodox in their approach. In fact, compared to some of them Heisig seems even a bit mundane.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - ivoSF - 2007-12-16
to be realistic, i do think you should move on after finishing rtk1 else it is all a waste of time indeed, over a year ago i stopped and in effect wasted the whole learning time, except that i can now relearn them again a bit faster.
so its useless if you do not put it to further use, i think after reconizing the 2000 kanji you should start to read and atach readings and such to the kanji you now reconize.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - ファブリス - 2007-12-16
nukemarine Wrote:It's even gotten me from saying I learned 2000 kanji to saying I learned a basic meaning of 2000 Kanji and how to write them.I know what you mean, and I guess that's fair. That's still quite an accomplishment (unfortunately maybe), for most of us doing this under a year time. I wouldn't consider myself literate if I could only read but not write.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - mspertus - 2007-12-16
I think dukelexon is right on target. The real point is that Heisig (and this website) make it so easy to learn the keywords and writing for the kanji that it is hard to argue against. I did the whole RTK1 list in about 3 months, and browsing through other members indicate this is pretty typical. In any case, I think anyone who diligently follows the review schedule on this site can learn them all in less than a year (If not, they may want to try another system that is a better match to the way they learn).
While you can make some objections, who really cares when it is such a small investment of time and effort? For example, Nukemarine points out that you have to learn the entire Jouyou list. For the record, I agree with Heisig's justification for this (e.g., most sentences in Japanese books contain at least 1 kanji that is not among the thousand most common, rare kanji are often useful as primitives in more common kanji, etc.), but even if I didn't, so what? What does it really matter if I spend 3 months learning 2 thousand kanji instead of 2 months learning the 1 thousand most common kanji.
Likewise, you still need to learn the reading and vocabulary, but so what? You start learning them a few months later (I like the kanji in context books rather than Heisig v2 and there are numerous Leitner flashcard systems available online for vocabulary), and you'll probably save far more time than you invested on Heisig due to knowing the Heisig keywords and writing by the time you reach the 10,000 word vocabulary you need to really be able to read Japanese books.
Even if Heisig doesn't work out as well for you as it did for me, the downside is pretty small: At the worst, you choose another approach and move on. Given how well it works for many people, I think it's worth the risk. It certainly doesn't do any harm. In any case, it doesn't seem to merit the virulence with which some people regard it.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Jarvik7 - 2007-12-16
I think the two main reasons people don't succeed with Heisig is they don't read the introduction and thus don't use the book's method properly/at all, or they try to use the book at the same time as they are taking a Japanese course. In my personal experience, it is difficult/counter productive to do both at the same time. The kanji you learn through Heisig aren't instantly 100% usable either, so they are not available to be used in class writings etc. It's a lot more effective to just go at the book full force during a break.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - stehr - 2007-12-16
dukelexon Wrote:How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method......once they've actually TRIED it?True, none of the opponents of Heisig that I've seen have been able to finish the book (much less actually read it!). I love it when they say that the associations will somehow hamper your progress and that it's a waste of time (I think I'll keep that "useless information" I learned from RTK, thanks). They're still in the dark ages man,, just have a chuckle and move on... I'm not sure it's even worth arguing about really.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - dingomick - 2007-12-16
How can anyone possibly argue against the Heisig method...once they've even read his introductions? Most of the arguments others use against it can be dismissed from simply giving the intro a slow reading to absorb his proposal (it's the first big <step> in the process naysayers...). Thankfully Nukemarine laid out some complaints with the method right away to show it's not a perfect holy delivery, but as he also noted they're complaints, not destructive flaws (btw, he chose private because there are already too many "I" kanji, and the other main meaning for 私 is "private"). Heisig is difficult. But I can say from personal experience that it requires <less> work and/or struggling in the end compared to other methods.
I have tons to say about all this and the replies in this thread, but I've already swooned enough in other threads. I'd only like to emphasize that the main hindrance is that people simply don't have practice with imaginative learning, they therefore don't believe in its power (as Heisig discusses in his intro. We all use it (even Japanese!) with kanji, but don't trust it, or think it's childish), and thus dismiss Heisig completely. I've read tons on learning methodology after Heisig and realize now it's not even anything notworthy. It's only 'revolutionary' because so many people neglect such an old and proven memorization method.
This thread was about a recent National Geographic method dedicated to memory. Guess what? "Heisig's" method is thousands of years old, and has been performing amazing feats of memory all that time.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - Mighty_Matt - 2007-12-17
I think that a lot of people give up on RTK1 because they don't understand the story method. This is probably because most people don't even know they can use their brains in ways other than those they were taught at school.
I'll admit that I didn't really 'get' Hesig until I was several hundred kanji in. It's at this point that you really see if you're using the method correctly. If you are, you just keep going. If not, you'll start to get confused easily. This leads to frustration and causes people to give up, branding the book as 'useless' etc. The thing is that Heisig even says in one of the chapters to go back and really make sure you've made stories correctly, and not just used your visual memory etc.
I'm sure if the people that had reached that point, but then given up, looked at the kanji that they did remember, they'd find strange stories in their heads that they just can't forget...
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - billyclyde - 2007-12-17
I think too people balk at the completeness. Anyone can see a need to have a few mnemonics here & there, but all the joyo kanji? And why not in grade level order? They dont' see that this order is better, or the paradox that having stories for every kanji makes them easier to remember, not harder. Because then you don't get mixed up.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - erlog - 2007-12-17
I think really, what the Heisig method is about is creating logical connective pathways in your brain between pieces of information. You keep following these pathways, practicing them, and then before long you have worn a trail into the forest of your brain. A few years out from the method, you may not even remember any of your stories. But, as if by magic, you have links in your brain between kanji and the flavor of their meaning.
This can't possibly be a bad thing.
How can anyone POSSIBLY argue against the Heisig method... - suffah - 2007-12-17
Great post!
dukelexon Wrote:Readings are going to come later, and because I've already got the meaning and writing down ... they're also going to come a lot easier and faster.This is the main point I try to get across to the anti-Heisig crowd. RtK1 isn't the end-all of your kanji studies. With RtK1 done, you're going to accelerate the rest of your time with Kanji. It's a 3-month investment with an incredible payback.