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+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Learning resources (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Silverspoon Nuetrino (/thread-10001.html)
Silverspoon Nuetrino - blackbrich - 2012-10-02
I thought Neutrino is just Silverspoon 2.0? And if you are with Silverspoon you have nothing to worry about and if you don't have it, you also have nothing to worry about. From what I remember reading its basically just rebranding.
Its like when facebook changes its design, except not so suddenly.
edit: Did anyone actually read the article?
Silverspoon Nuetrino - shinsen - 2012-10-02
prink Wrote:Not true at all. I self-studied before taking second-year Japanese at my school. Being able to learn in a class environment and ask my professors questions (even if they weren't directly related to coursework) greatly benefited my Japanese.You self-studied and you asked questions, so perhaps you benefited from your own efforts, not the curriculum. I wasn't really talking about my experience, I was just describing the niche that Khatz is targeting, that's all. I think he hit a gold mine because there are a lot of people that I described and they're in desperate need of encouragement and help that school programs don't know how to address.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Ampharos64 - 2012-10-02
prink Wrote:Obviously, but why is it in the middle of that article? Is he stuck in a time warp? Can he not escape 2008? I don't like Obama as a president, but I don't like the way right-wing nut jobs continue to beat this dead horse and try to make him the other. Regardless of intent, it demonstrates a certain level of ignorance on his part, but it isn't just that one quote.Khatz is Kenyan.
blackbrich Wrote:I thought Neutrino is just Silverspoon 2.0? And if you are with Silverspoon you have nothing to worry about and if you don't have it, you also have nothing to worry about. From what I remember reading its basically just rebranding.Yup, that sounds about it (or Silverspoon 7.0, as Khatz prefers to call it). It's just it's difficult to tell what is actually changing without more concrete information, though the description for Silverspoon itself is also quite vague.
Its like when facebook changes its design, except not so suddenly.
edit: Did anyone actually read the article?
Silverspoon Nuetrino - undead_saif - 2012-10-02
TwoMoreCharacters Wrote:I think what AJATT did best was to introduce people with low success with language learning to new methods, more simpler and fun methods that still prove to be more effective. Yes, there are a lot of great resources here that aren't on his site, but he's responsible for having introduced a lot of people to places like this with his encouraging.The first and only time I read from AJATT was in 2009 when learning about language learning had a high priority, I read bits from two to three topics he talked about, but I noticed that his posts are big walls of text with little content, I remember trying to read super fast in order to keep myself interested, then I bookmarked the content page for later and never went back! So I actually feel sorry for those who had to read that website to learn about some good learning methods!
BTW I heard about AJATT from here.
Edit: And to be honest it's people's fault not to recognize that there's more into learning languages than what they had in school. If someone is interested and motivated to learn languages, shouldn't he think and search about language learning? The eye-opening point isn't a good argument and he ,as far and I know, didn't present any new methods.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - blackbrich - 2012-10-02
Many people have been indoctrinated that the only way is school and if not then you have to live there or be born there(Very much so in the US).
If its true that he opened people's eyes then I'd say its a good argument. If you searched for ways to learn a language and stumbled upon his blog and went from:
Impossible -> Maybe I can do this. Then I'd say he did a decent job.
Maybe the methods weren't new in 2009, but they weren't as widespread before his blog came about(at least not with Japanese). [According to his blog posts, his first post was Oct. 2006 and he had a blog prior that had went down.]
Even if they weren't new ideas, he brought them together as he did. Wheels and chairs existed before cars but...
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Stian - 2012-10-02
I always preferred japaneselevelup.com; that guy is a bit more humble and he has summarised a lot of the good points from ajatt.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - blackbrich - 2012-10-02
I've never understood why people think the AJATT guy is not humble.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Adent - 2012-10-02
I hate seeing people bad mouth Khatzumoto. He's the reason I even heard of Heisig. Oh well Khatz doesn't need any defending. He's a total bad ass and that's all there is to it.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Chigun - 2012-10-03
blackbrich Wrote:I've never understood why people think the AJATT guy is not humble.At the heart of the matter he probably says most of the boisterous things he does for humor's sake and not out of legitimate arrogance. Unfortunately the joke can get old fast.
adent Wrote:I hate seeing people bad mouth Khatzumoto. He's the reason I even heard of Heisig...No offense, really, but if not Khatz, then someone else. Heisig is mentioned all over the Internet. Pretty much anywhere Japanese learners congregate.
On the classroom note, I took a semester of Japanese at my university. Would have taken more but graduating of all things kept me from continuing (Japanese 102, 201, 202, etc are still on my "want to do" list). Access to a real life teacher, as well as the occasional wise student someone may meet above one's own level, is of great benefit in my opinion. This is not in any way discounting pure self-study or alternate techniques, but I would not take traditional methods off the table entirely.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - thecite - 2012-10-03
I personally benefited greatly from Khatz's site; it had great advice right when I needed it and sent me in the right direction. So there you go.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Rael89 - 2012-10-03
Some of you guys are really reaching for reasons to dislike and discredit Khatzumoto. Its like the people who won't admit they liked Green Day because of how mainstream and successful they've become. Why you mad tho?
Silverspoon Nuetrino - nohika - 2012-10-03
Rael89 Wrote:Some of you guys are really reaching for reasons to dislike and discredit Khatzumoto. Its like the people who won't admit they liked Green Day because of how mainstream and successful they've become. Why you mad tho?There have been many, many debates on this forum about this before. The search function can lead you to several of them.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - prink - 2012-10-04
Ampharos64 Wrote:I understood that when writing my post.prink Wrote:Obviously, but why is it in the middle of that article? Is he stuck in a time warp? Can he not escape 2008? I don't like Obama as a president, but I don't like the way right-wing nut jobs continue to beat this dead horse and try to make him the other. Regardless of intent, it demonstrates a certain level of ignorance on his part, but it isn't just that one quote.Khatz is Kenyan.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Surreal - 2012-10-04
I don't know when exactly this site's language learning guide was put together but it's been there ever since I first heard of AJATT and judging by the ancient site design and the very old forums I think it was a fair amount of time before AJATT became known http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/guide/index.html . It's a no-nonsense thing that has all the vital messages and between this and antimoon the only thing missing, it seems to me, would be kanji-specific tips and reassurances that non-natives really can learn kanji.
Khatzumoto has from the start acknowledged that he was always just an editor of sorts, who put together tips and methods from other sources, "japanesifying" them as he went. And I think he could've done a much better job at that since the site/blog has from the start been so far removed from an effective bare-bones structure and nothing has been done to correct this problem. Like I said before, that he snuck in the message "you have time you just don't know it, and even if you really have no time, then make sacrifices because JAPANESE" is also a huge problem (note: even though I say "snuck in" I'm not claiming that he did it consciously - and it really doesn't matter if he did or didn't). So is the contempt for "traditional" learning methods that is expressed on the AJATT site, because it replaces one arbitrary rule (school learning is the way!) with another just as arbitrary rule (individualistic, "fun" learning is the way!). With the site being in the state it is in now, it should be abandoned IMO. Khatzumoto played a role in popularizing "non-painful" language learning and some learning methods that were developed by others, sure. I don't think anyone is denying that. But that's not a good reason to cling onto his site since others have done a much better job at "editing". There's no reason to give AJATT a special status and I think it's totally backwards to, as a learner, follow one particular person's advice out of some respect for that person. If the one giving advice really does care about your learning they should want for you to use whatever means available to further your own learning as much as possible, EVEN IF IT MEANS IGNORING THEM FOR SOMEONE ELSE. I'd like to say especially, really.
If I met someone who was trying to learn Japanese and wants help I would probably link them the How to Learn Any Language Guide, Antimoon, and Nukemarine's guide for beginners. I probably wouldn't even bother linking them Anki as I've grown to understand that it is just one tool of many and far from essential, on the contrary it often frustrates beginning learners. Maybe I'd look up a (trustworthy) Japanese learning story to give them a realistic precedent of someone who succeeded at learning Japanese. I see very little that throwing the walls of text that comprise AJATT at them could possibly add to this knowledge base, hardly anything that would be worth the time spent wading through the articles anyway. In fact I think there's a considerable risk it would do more harm than good, even excluding the time lost reading. This is because, repeating this point one more time, the learner might form some counter-productive views regarding school learning and come to spend excessive amounts of time on Japanese learning. Oh and I'd recommend this would-be learner to look into taking Japanese classes if they think it could be fun, but to also not limit themselves to the classes' pace.
There is no need for AJATT anymore.
(I know the AJATT discussion is tired but I think now that the hype has died down the related topics and what really is the best for Japanese learning can be discussed in a less hectic and more interesting way)
Edit: Also "passive listening", which has been disproved as a good means of studying by scientific studies time and again. That's another bad element.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - legendmaxx - 2012-10-04
I think you guys should take a look at this...
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-take-advice-including-mine
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Surreal - 2012-10-04
legendmaxx Wrote:I think you guys should take a look at this...Doesn't really negate any of my criticism. It's an editor who puts a foreword to their work that says "This work may or may not help you use what's useful for you!". It's like yeah. Alright. That doesn't mean that the bad advice isn't bad anymore because the work says you can ignore it. It also emphasizes my point that "respect" should play no role when choosing what material or help to use as a learner.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-take-advice-including-mine
Again, there's no need for what AJATT is now.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - shinsen - 2012-10-04
Surreal Wrote:Again, there's no need for what AJATT is now.Do we even know what AJATT is now? We can't even figure out what Netrino is.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - blackbrich - 2012-10-04
Surreal Wrote:I'd say it probably negated this.legendmaxx Wrote:I think you guys should take a look at this...Doesn't really negate any of my criticism. It's an editor who puts a foreword to their work that says "This work may or may not help you use what's useful for you!". It's like yeah. Alright. That doesn't mean that the bad advice isn't bad anymore because the work says you can ignore it. It also emphasizes my point that "respect" should play no role when choosing what material or help to use as a learner.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-take-advice-including-mine
Again, there's no need for what AJATT is now.
Surreal Wrote:If the one giving advice really does care about your learning they should want for you to use whatever means available to further your own learning as much as possible, EVEN IF IT MEANS IGNORING THEM FOR SOMEONE ELSE. I'd like to say especially, really.No such thing as general bad advice, only bad advice for a certain person/persons.
You should go pro in basketball, for someone 6'5" and can jump and thats the best basketball player in the world thats great advice. For someone that 3'4" and can't dribble thats terrible advice.
Just because it doesn't help everyone does not mean it helps no one.
If AJATT helps even one person, then I'd say its needed. As much as it seems obvious to people that like learning Japanese that its possible, to many its not. Telling them methods is useful. But if they go into it believing the task is impossible then they'll probably fail.
AJATT in a nutshell
1. Japanese isn't impossible
2. Keep motivation by having fun
The method is 2%. Its 98% motivation.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Surreal - 2012-10-04
So you are basically taking an extreme subjectivist position, which is pretty far away from the kind of discourse I was using, which was more about functionality. I could create a blog right now! Here are my entries
Blogpost 1: Learn Japanese by Studying Every Day!
Blogpost 2: Don't Give Up!
Blogpost 3: Be Awesome!
Maybe someone somewhere will be motivated by it SUPER DUPER MUCH! So let's all link all Japanese learners to my blog!
Sure, you can go with this totally subjective notion where criticism means nothing. But then you can't really argue for why people ought to read AJATT over something else anyway.
And if you're talking about the functionality of telling people that language learning is possible and that it can be fun, the How to Learn Any Language guide takes up those points pretty well. As I've argued elsewhere, people who "need" so much "motivation"/hand-holding as AJATT has probably need to evaluate how important Japanese really is to them and what gives them individual motivation.
But whatever, I'm going to bed now. I still think that on the whole it would benefit the world's japanese language learners, with some few exceptions, to be linked to the sites I suggested rather than AJATT. You're free to disagree, of course. Good night.
Edit: Oh and one more thing. "Passive listening" when you're sleeping is bad advice no matter how you try to spin it.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - gaiaslastlaugh - 2012-10-04
Surreal Wrote:Edit: Oh and one more thing. "Passive listening" when you're sleeping is bad advice no matter how you try to spin it.I tried this early on. All it did was give me weird dreams about drinking in a bar and arguing with the bartender about the 民主党.
@Surreal, I like your question about where one would point beginners. I avoided going to the local Japanese Meetups for a while because I thought my Japanese was too crappy. I started going on a regular basis recently, and meeting people who were either just beginning or were struggling to make traction after years of on/off study. (Which made me realize I needed to stop making excuses and just dive into the local Japanese language scene. But that's another story.)
A few people have asked me for advice, which has generally been:
* Use the NukeMarine guide. I personally push KanjiBox for kanji study, but also recommend Heisig, RevTK, and other sites. I don't recommend AntiMoon, but I do push the idea of massive input.
* Concentrate on getting to the point where you can begin making sense of Japanese in the wild, and can learn from native material. That means learning kana, a good swath of kanji, and basic vocab (N5-N3). That's really when your language study starts to become fun.
* For vocab: either go the Anki/SRS route, or the buonaparte route (http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/). Whatever you do, you will need massive, repeated exposure to words if you have any hope of retaining them.
* Get through the 常用漢字 as soon as you can. If people don't do Heisig, I recommend getting at least all N5-N2 kanji in KanjiBox down cold, and then filling in the rest as you learn vocab.
Once people get beyond that, I suggest the following:
* Make your own comprehensible input. Find things you think you want to read, and work on understanding the grammar and vocab in the text. Once you've finished understanding something, move on to the next article/audio clip/manga/whatever.
* Reading, listening, writing and speaking should all be approached as separate skills, and practiced each in their own right.
* Practice listening early and often. Don't just assume you will understand spoken Japanese because you can read its written equivalent.
* Start thinking in the language as early as possible. Make it a part of your internal monologue. As soon as you can, start talking to yourself about the things that you read. (You'll be surprised how hard it is to describe something you *just* read.)
* When you speak, use the structures you think you know with confidence. Speaking lags behind comprehension, so odds are your speech will be a level (or even 2?) below what you can comprehend.
* Use the self-talk exercise (http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23061&TPN=20&KW=self-talk#325750) to tell stories in Japanese that you can then communicate to your Japanese friends and 言語交換 partners. Sites like Lang-8 are awesome, but as AlexandreC points out, speaking is a lot more mentally demanding than writing. My own process these days is:
- Tell myself a story through self-talk.
- Relate it in speech to one or more of my Japanese friends.
- Write up up later on Lang-8.com for in-depth corrections and feedback.
The only thing I'd say about motivation, really, would be to be clear on why you want to learn this language, because if you truly want to understand it, it's going to require a massive investment of your time.
And also, don't talk yourself into thinking you *can't* learn it. English is just as hard as Japanese, and odds are you know some pretty stupid people who speak English. Don't believe your brain's bullshit.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Ampharos64 - 2012-10-04
prink Wrote:I understood that when writing my post.Ah, right. Then, I think Khatz really just intended it as a joke, maybe his sense of humour doesn't appeal to you, which is fair enough.
Surreal Wrote:As I've argued elsewhere, people who "need" so much "motivation"/hand-holding as AJATT has probably need to evaluate how important Japanese really is to them and what gives them individual motivation.I don't really feel that's the case. It's absolutely possible to want to do something and feel like you can't. I think perhaps more confident people might not really appreciate that. AJATT isn't the only site to help with motivation, but it does really focus on that aspect, that anyone can learn a language if they put the time and effort in (and though the advice isn't perfect for everyone, the practical suggestions offer a plan how to start). As I mentioned earlier in the topic, even my language student flatmate, someone who had already had success with learning languages, honestly believed that she could not learn Japanese, her immediate assumption was that I (me! The same person who had failed miserably to learn German at school!) must just be really clever to be writing kanji. Rather than realising, even when I tried to explain, that it was that I was using a method that worked and simply putting time in. So, people in that position, if they have an interest in Japanese, need something to tell them, in a way that will get through to them, that yes, they actually can do it if they really want to.
People offering advice often forget what it's like to be a real beginner (AJATT isn't perfect for this, either). Someone who hasn't learnt a language before and may not really believe they can. Who may have failed to learn languages due to using methods not suited to them.
The How to Learn Any Language guide, I personally found rather overwhelming, because a lot of the perspective is from the PoV of people who have learned languages and enjoy doing so. Back then, it just made me feel stupid, honestly, and it also placed a bit too much emphasis on the difficulty of Japanese, and on tapes, which I've found don't suit me at all. That's simply intended as a personal response.
Surreal Wrote:I probably wouldn't even bother linking them Anki as I've grown to understand that it is just one tool of many and far from essential, on the contrary it often frustrates beginning learners.I usually do, with an explanation that it won't necessarily suit everyone. I feel like I should link to it, since for me I'm certain it is essential, and that may be the case for others too.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - Surreal - 2012-10-05
Well like I said, if I think they need it, I'd add a personal account or two of language learning that is realistic (/relatable) and shows them that "normal" people can learn Japanese. There is value in that, of course. But I don't think AJATT does a very good job with that either because of a) the unnecessarily drawn out posts, of which none on it own really summarizes Khatzumoto's learning experience (from what I've seen anyway) b) the "humorous exaggerations" which make it impossible for a beginner to understand what's true and not about learning (you can be like a native in one year!1!!)
You're probably right about the how to learn any language guide being possibly off-putting since it feel like it's passed its expiration date. I mostly pulled up some examples to show that there are much more brief and clear knowledge sources that hold what are usually considered to be the essential elements of AJATT.
Regarding Anki:, maybe it really is essential for you, but I think people in general overestimate the value of the methods they are personally using. People have been learning languages for a very long time doing it with all sorts of mental tools and many people even today are learning Japanese to a very high level without using any formal SRS. I've used Anki, but I don't think it made such a huge difference (well obviously since I used Heisig I had to use it but the same goes for Heisig itself) in the long run, and you probably think that in your individual case it DID. There aren't any scientific studies to prove either of us wrong, as far as I know. Anyway, I don't think it is so essential that I'd choose to recommend it to a beginner. I'd leave it up to them to figure out what I consider to be alternatives like that on their own.
@Gaia: Nice write-up! I think that sounds like a good route.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - undead_saif - 2012-10-05
Surreal Wrote:I don't know when exactly this site's language learning guide was put together but it's been there ever since I first heard of AJATT and judging by the ancient site design and the very old forums I think it was a fair amount of time before AJATT became known http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/guide/index.html . It's a no-nonsense thing that has all the vital messages and between this and antimoon the only thing missing, it seems to me, would be kanji-specific tips and reassurances that non-natives really can learn kanji.That site is the one I had the basic idea from about starting language learning! I rmeber spending a whole day on it, good stuff!
Silverspoon Nuetrino - gaiaslastlaugh - 2012-10-05
Surreal Wrote:Regarding Anki:, maybe it really is essential for you, but I think people in general overestimate the value of the methods they are personally using.I forget who wrote it now, but i read a post by a Japanese learner on the Internet along the lines of, "It doesn't matter so much what you do - what matters is that you do a lot of it." Constant, daily exposure to the language matters more than any specific technique, IMO. Everything else is 方便.
Silverspoon Nuetrino - gluaygluay - 2014-02-18
Hey guys. A while back, I tried doing the Silverspoon/Neutrino program. Started out on Silverspoon and transitioned into the new Neutrino program about 4-5 months in if I remember correctly.
Silverspoon: get your instructions for the day and try to do all the activities for that day in your free time. A lot of it was doing Kanji reps.
Neutrino: turn the whole process into a game where you log in, it gives you activities, and you do them right away to get points. When you reach a certain point total for the day, you can stop or keep going. As you progress in points, you get certain titles or levels.
Silverspoon was a lot of Kanji reps and watching commecials and listening to music. I did enjoy watching/listening to a lot of the recommended material, but I didn't understand any of it. Honestly, a lot of it felt like wasted time. I understand the concept of learning through exposure like a child would, but I think as adults we can take shortcuts so that we don't have to spend 5-10 years learning a language. The Kanji reps were good, though, however we had to make our own flashcards.
I can see the vision behind Neutrino and I think it is a good one. Ultimately, though, it didn't work for me. Since I didn't know the plan for the day, I couldn't schedule times where I'd be free and "chillax" time where I didn't have to actively do anything, just passively consume music while I work. Silverspoon was superior in this sense. Also, with Silverspoon I felt more connected with my fellow students, as each daily lesson had a discussion forum.
Ultimately what killed me was the fact that I switched to Neutrino just as I was transitioning to making the MCD (Massive-Context Cloze Deletion) cards. In Neutrino, it just said, "Make some MCDs" - no explanation as to what a good MCD is or how to make one. I was getting busy with work so I really didn't have time to look through Japanese source material to find good material for MCDs. I really wish that he had made some MCDs to get us started, and as we got more advanced, we could start making our own. Silverspoon might have had more of an explanation, but I didn't get it before switching to Neutrino.
Also, Neutrino tried getting you involved in social media, with activities like "follow something Japanese on Twitter" or "like a Japanese Facebook page". I didn't get much out of these activities, admittedly - maybe if I stuck with the program and got more advanced, it would have been good.
So 6-7 months in, I stopped logging into the site to do the activities as I got more discouraged and busier in other areas in my life.
Eventually, when I got my head above water again, I realized I might be able to get a refund. I tried contacting Khatz about it and got a note from "Naomi" (attached below). It said that I would receive a reply in 3-5 business days, but it's been months and I still haven't heard from them, despite my periodically reminding them.
I saw on a "ripoff report" site that one person who tried requesting a refund finally started getting about $100 month from them, so it would take years to get his money back. I don't know if others have had similar experiences, but at least he got a response!
Letter:
Hiya!
This is Naomi from the support team of AJATT.com,
Thank you so much for your email.
You being helped is our job! That, and to...make Khatz seem marginally competent :) .
Due to the volume of messages received, it may take 3~5 working days
to hear back from us, but rest assured that you *will* hear back from me.
In fact, if you don't, something has gone horribly wrong, so please resend your email!
AJATT has experienced a great deal of growth recently,
far more than Khatz and his original team of volunteer friends could handle.
We're still working on getting things back in balance and on an even keel,
but you deserve the best and I intend to give it to you.
Warm regards,
Naomi
Operations/Support, Awesome Sauce Bringer
AJATT.com
*****REFUNDS****
A special note on refunds:
Almost all AJATT offerings, products and services come with a full refund guarantee.
Yay!
[Non-SilverSpoon/Neutrino offerings]
Refunds for AJATT offerings other than Neutrino are processed every 2~4 weeks.
When you send me a request, I will let you know that I've received it,
confirm any relevant account information with you,
run the refund, and then ask you to confirm that you've received the amount.
[Refunds for SilverSpoon/Neutrino]
If you have been allowed to join the SilverSpoon/Neutrino program,
you are entitled to a full refund as part of the "Fo-Shizzle Fluency Guarantee".
Due to the exclusive, limited and long-term nature of the SilverSpoon/Neutrino program,
please be aware that refunds are only processed *after* the specified number of days
(usually 995) has elapsed, that is, after completion of the program's set timeframe,
regardless of cancellation date.
This is a measure to maintain the quality and integrity of the program.
Neutrino is designed to be a serious, meaningful, enjoyable and engaging long-term commitment.
Please feel free to use the following calendar to confirm your eligibility date:
Date Duration Calculator: Days between two dates - http://is.gd/NQakww
***TELEPHONE CALLS***
If you would like me to give you a call,
please leave your name and number and I can get back to you.