Hello!

New to the forum, but I have an interesting question. This is in regard to Genki, Kanji and the overall order in which we learn Japanese. 

First, a bit of background: I took two semesters of Japanese in college, have hiragana and katakana down and have about several hundred words in my Japanese lexicon. I have been away from learning Japanese for a year or two, but have decided to really dive head first into the language and ascertain some level of fluency as I intend on teaching English in Japan in the near future.  In college we used the Genki textbook, which I have always enjoyed. However, the more I pour through online forms and am introduced to other learning methods and the sheer amount of struggle that others have had trying to learn the language, I'm looking to start off on the right foot, in order to ease my potential suffering. 

My eyes have just recently been opened to how truly daunting learning Japanese is (I can say that my Japanese Sensei's really never communicated how difficult it would be). If anybody is familiar with Ken Seeroi's stuff at japaneserulesof7.com he has a knack for bringing people down to reality. But after reading Ken's site, along with Tae Kim's blog and the opinions of thousands of other Japanese learners, I feel far more confused as to where to really re-start this whole language learning journey. I barley remember the grammar and just recently reviewed the kana, and my vocabulary. 

So here, is my question, albeit a very broad question (much like "what is the meaning of life?"). To those of you who have at least picked up some level of fluency, in what order did you begin to study the materials? More importantly what was the foundation? Did you, for example, use Genki, Tae Kim or Learning Japanese the Manga Way to build up your grammar foundation and learn vocabulary and Kanji later? Or should it all be done simultaneously? I always read about ways to find reading material of your level and immersing yourself in Japanese drama, but when is really appropriate to start such activities? 

Another concern I had, is when to start learning the Kanji? Should I start that up ASAP and get acquainted with Wanikani? or Anki? 

Basically I'm at the point where I am quite familiar with the language, how it sounds, the kana and some basic sentence structure. I can only imagine there are other former Japanese students who may be in the same position I'm at and want to know how t"re-build"  the best foundation, and hopefully fill in some of the cracks they had originally. 

I apologize if this has been covered in a multitude of posts, however I felt as though this would be a useful discussion to have. 

I would be glad to hear any and all opinions or links you have to share. 

Thank you

-GreenCross

From my experience, consuming native material and checking back to a grammar guide when I encountered something I didn't understand was the easiest way for me to gain a very solid understanding of basic fundamental grammar structures. 

Of course, to even recognise that something is a grammar structure, I had skimmed through Tae Kim's grammar guide. I started reading simple manga like Yotsuba& while checking back to the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar or Tae Kim before I even knew 1000 Japanese words from the core deck, but seeing grammar structures used in the wild definitely helped me more way more than staring at a grammar textbook ever would (input hypothesis). Bear in mind though, it was torturously difficult at first -- I took an hour to finish the first chapter! -- but the sense of accomplishment when my reading speed and comprehension improved was unparalleled.

I'm not saying that this is the only way to learn Japanese, but this is how I learnt it to a respectable level:

• Tae Kim (1 chapter per day or more if I had more time)
  
• Core6k deck (10 per day at first, slowly ramped up to 30-70 once I was halfway done with it)
  
• Reading (I started this when I had a 700 word vocabulary)
  
• Mining words from reading material and suspending duplicates from Core
  
• Listen to Japanese music when commuting (I barely understood any of it at first, but perhaps I subconsciously learnt some grammar and vocab from it 笑)
  

Please note that:

• I spent a year in secondary school learning Japanese learning basic grammar, some vocabulary as well as following a textbook so my starting point for self-learning was somewhat similar to yours (I only paid attention to lessons for 6 of those 12 months though )
  
• I did not spend more than 2-3 hours a day reading, but I would read for at least an hour a day on average. Some days if I was too tired I would just do Anki and forget about reading completely
  
• I believe that consuming native material is what helped me gain a strong foundation and understanding of how verbs are conjugated as well as which particles, structures etc would be used in a particular situation
  
• I did not actively study using any grammar textbooks besides Tae Kim and only used the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar as reference
  
• I only read things that I was at the very least mildly interested in and did not force myself to read anything that I knew I would not like as doing
  
• While there are some questionable nuances in Tae Kim's grammar guide, I find that it covers all essential Japanese grammar and there is no better grammar primer for Japanese self-learners right now
  

Right now I would recommend that you start with a grammar guide of your choice -- I recommend TK, but all paths lead to the summit -- and get Anki set up. Anki is better than wanikani for many reasons, but I shall not delve into that topic for now. As for learning the kanji individually, that's completely up to your discretion. Some have had great success with it, others haven't, but one thing is for certain -- If you stick with whatever method you choose, you will achieve fluency eventually.

Thank you so much for your suggestions Risu. It was enlightening. 

First off, do you have any other suggestions for low-level manga to start reading besides Yotsuba?

Also, I HAVE already started WaniKani and I find it to be fairly practical, but I plan on using it in conjunction with Anki, Genki and Tae Kim. I figure that at the end of the day, its all about what works best for us as individuals. 

I'll have to work on finding Japanese materials to start reading, as well as figuring out Anki.....those are two parts of this equation that I have yet to get a solid grasp on......particularly the Word Mining part, I followed the link you posted but I was overall confused on what was going on. 

But thank you again. I feel as though since I already have Genki I & II, I will just work through those books again in order to build up my grammar, basic kanji recognition and then supplement with Tae Kim. I'm going to continue to experiment with WaniKani because frankly being spoon feed Kanji doesn't seem like a bad deal (although I hear that it has its downsides, but I digress) and get Anki set up. I feel like what you described in accordance to reading is probably %100 true. I will certainly begin reading once I feel I have roughly a 700 word vocab.....so thank you for that suggestion. (Fortunately I listen to Japanese Music daily anyway, so I've already got that point down!) 

As a side question, in terms of the different grammar patterns and conjugations that arise in Formal, Informal, and Honorific/Humble scenarios, were you able to absorb those through your reading to the point where you could chat informally with friends, formally with co-workers and Honorifically/Humbly with your superiors? Or did you make sure to pay special attention during your grammar study?

Once again, thank you.

(2016-06-20, 3:45 pm)GreenCross Wrote: I will certainly begin reading once I feel I have roughly a 700 word vocab...

Just a suggestion. Instead of doing something like core or another frequency list, why not pre-learn vocabulary for materials that you intend to read immediately. The reason I say this is because I know several thousand words now and I still find reading difficult. Having to look up several words in most sentences makes reading quite a slog. Lately I've been pre-learning vocabulary before reading and it's made reading much more enjoyable. It's a similar approach to core because you are learning common words, but they are words that you will see again soon so you get the additional reinforcement. And reading when you know all of the words is so much more enjoyable.

That is a very interesting concept Yogert909.

So in terms of "pre-learning" vocab, what would you suggest? Say I'm looking to read a Manga, do I go through the first chapter, picking out words I don't know, then looking them up and studying them in order to read the chapter without pause? Or do you mean find lists of commonly used phrases and terms in Manga in general and study up?

Or does this apply more to a Newspaper article you know is going to be on Politics so I would be looking up Political terminology?

Just interested in hearing a bit more in-depth about your approach.

Look into Assimil's Japanese With Ease vol 1 and 2. Genki is overly suggested in the self learning community despite not being self learner friendly. After JWE and RTK you can go immediately into native materials.

(2016-06-20, 4:59 pm)GreenCross Wrote: That is a very interesting concept Yogert909.

So in terms of "pre-learning" vocab, what would you suggest? Say I'm looking to read a Manga, do I go through the first chapter, picking out words I don't know, then looking them up and studying them in order to read the chapter without pause? Or do you mean find lists of commonly used phrases and terms in Manga in general and study up?

Or does this apply more to a Newspaper article you know is going to be on Politics so I would be looking up Political terminology?

Just interested in hearing a bit more in-depth about your approach.

I'm not sure this approach would be useful for materials that aren't in electronic text format.  The materials I've been using have all been in electronic text format so that I can automate card creation.   

I take the text from something I want to read and past it into the jdic glosser then clean up the output to create anki vocabulary cards.  Then I delete the words that I already know and study the rest before reading or listening.  You could also do something similar with subs2srs.  I believe this kind of thing works best taking things in small chunks and not studying too much before actual use.  It's all about understanding words within larger contexts than a single sentence and actually using Japanese to enjoy materials that you want to.  I think this approach can also benefit from multiple readings or watching a show multiple times.

You can do both Core and prelearning (or learning as you go); just suspend all the cards in Core to start with, and unsuspend them according to the vocab lists that you have for the material you intend to approach.

Personally I make my own cards, but many people don't like to take the time for that.

I started with the kana, improved my ability to distinguish kanji (RTK), started studying vocabulary (Core) and grammar (from Tae Kim's Guide).

I think it's easiest to start with reading skills. I think vocabulary study is most easily done with premade decks and reading practice. Core isn't perfect, but you save tons of time using it over making your own decks, and reading will iron out any vague definitions.

I like saving money. Spending money on things I can get for cheap/free is just wasteful. Some people see it differently. Time is money, so I like saving time (actually, I'm just lazy).

So I suggest Tae Kim's guide, familiarizing yourself with kanji early (for ease of vocabulary acquisition, not writing practice; writing can wait until later unless absolutely necessary), using Core, and reading as soon as it's possible.

(2016-06-20, 8:04 pm)sholum Wrote: Core isn't perfect, but you save tons of time using it over making your own decks...

Making your own focused decks is pretty quick and easy if you use one of the many tools out there like Japanese text analysis tool + epwing2anki or subs2srs, ect.

(2016-06-20, 5:25 pm)Mars Prism Makeup Wrote:  After JWE and RTK you can go immediately into native materials.

Whether or not to use RTK has me at a crossroads. I've read points of view from people who vehemently despise Heisig and the RTK. Then I've read from people (see. Ken Seeroi) who think that its useful to just use RTK to get your self familiar with visually distinguishing Kanji. Others apparently ascribed to the mnemonics and find some success.....what's your experience? 

 I'm currently experimenting with WaniKani, but yet again, that is another method that is widely debated?

(2016-06-20, 7:11 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: You can do both Core and prelearning (or learning as you go); just suspend all the cards in Core to start with, and unsuspend them according to the vocab lists that you have for the material you intend to approach.

Personally I make my own cards, but many people don't like to take the time for that.

Actually, this is a great idea. I'm definitely going to use it.

Also, do any of you have any really good links to Anki tutorials. It seems there is a bit of a learning curve and I'm not too familiar with the jargon that is being used in regards to using Anki. I think I saw a few on here, but is there one that is better than the rest?

(2016-06-20, 11:22 am)GreenCross Wrote: Hello!

New to the forum, but I have an interesting question. This is in regard to Genki, Kanji and the overall order in which we learn Japanese. 

First, a bit of background: I took two semesters of Japanese in college, have hiragana and katakana down and have about several hundred words in my Japanese lexicon. I have been away from learning Japanese for a year or two, but have decided to really dive head first into the language and ascertain some level of fluency as I intend on teaching English in Japan in the near future.  In college we used the Genki textbook, which I have always enjoyed. However, the more I pour through online forms and am introduced to other learning methods and the sheer amount of struggle that others have had trying to learn the language, I'm looking to start off on the right foot, in order to ease my potential suffering. 

Hello GreenCross and welcome to the Koohii forums! I too started my Japanese language journey via college courses. Though my school didn't use Genki but terrible books riddled in romaji D': I wish my school had used Genki though. These reddit topics about the Genki dialogs seem like a lot of fun XD

• Genki 1: I fear for Mary's safety
  
• Genki 1: Part 2 - I fear for Sue's sanity
  
• Genki 1: Part 3 - I fear for Mary's nutrition
  

lol in any case, you can read through Genki 1&2 if you'd like but if it bores you to tears, try something else like TK, Japanese the Manga Way or Visualizing Japanese Grammar. Btw, the Genki website has a useful page for Verb/Adjective Conjugation Practice.

(2016-06-20, 3:45 pm)GreenCross Wrote:  First off, do you have any other suggestions for low-level manga to start reading besides Yotsuba?

Though this question wasn't necessarilty directed to me, I thought I'd give my answer too I'm biased but I recommend Shirokuma Cafe. I couldn't get into Yotsuba for some reason -_- Besides, who doesn't love talking animals? xD That and pretty much it's the talk of the town (anime mostly) in the N3 thread hehe.  

(2016-06-20, 9:09 pm)RawrPk Wrote:

(2016-06-20, 11:22 am)GreenCross Wrote: Hello!

New to the forum, but I have an interesting question. This is in regard to Genki, Kanji and the overall order in which we learn Japanese. 

First, a bit of background: I took two semesters of Japanese in college, have hiragana and katakana down and have about several hundred words in my Japanese lexicon. I have been away from learning Japanese for a year or two, but have decided to really dive head first into the language and ascertain some level of fluency as I intend on teaching English in Japan in the near future.  In college we used the Genki textbook, which I have always enjoyed. However, the more I pour through online forms and am introduced to other learning methods and the sheer amount of struggle that others have had trying to learn the language, I'm looking to start off on the right foot, in order to ease my potential suffering. 

Hello GreenCross and welcome to the Koohii forums! I too started my Japanese language journey via college courses. Though my school didn't use Genki but terrible books riddled in romaji D': I wish my school had used Genki though. These reddit topics about the Genki dialogs seem like a lot of fun XD

• Genki 1: I fear for Mary's safety
  
• Genki 1: Part 2 - I fear for Sue's sanity
  
• Genki 1: Part 3 - I fear for Mary's nutrition
  

lol in any case, you can read through Genki 1&2 if you'd like but if it bores you to tears, try something else like TK, Japanese the Manga Way or Visualizing Japanese Grammar. Btw, the Genki website has a useful page for Verb/Adjective Conjugation Practice.

(2016-06-20, 3:45 pm)GreenCross Wrote:  First off, do you have any other suggestions for low-level manga to start reading besides Yotsuba?

Though this question wasn't necessarilty directed to me, I thought I'd give my answer too I'm biased but I recommend Shirokuma Cafe. I couldn't get into Yotsuba for some reason -_- Besides, who doesn't love talking animals? xD That and pretty much it's the talk of the town (anime mostly) in the N3 thread hehe.  

First of thank's for the welcome. Second of all, thank you for the great, and hilarious reply!

I didn't realize that there were so many other people who found the hidden humor about Meerii-san and her cohorts! I vividly remember when I would study with my good friend Evelyn, who also took the class (and whom I was secretly in-love with...but that sadly didn't pan out :/). We would always comment on how much of an idiot Meerii-san was, or how Takeshi-san was blatantly a dick to her. To be honest, I think we even came up with our own narratives for why they were in the situations that the cast was presented in. Honestly, I suggest everyone read through Genki if only for the drama that unfolds with the characters, its ridiculous, but just like a J-drama, it somehow gets you hooked. 

Thank you for the suggestion about Shirokuma Cafe, I've heard good things about it. I'll make it the first thing I read when I get to that point. Personally, I've always been about dark, philosophical, and action packed manga and anime, however I don't think I'll be reading Kanshikan Tsunemori Akane, or Durarara! anytime in the near future. I am personally a big fan of Nichijou though, and it seems pretty simple in English, perhaps that would be another good choice. 

Anyway, thank you for the reply and the suggestions!

I actually prefer action and fantasy based anime/manga, but alas! I am nowhere near ready so I cling to the slice of life genre with dear life. As least with Shirokuma cafe I get to laugh at the hilarity that ensues in the lives of these silly animals. I can easily imagine actual people having to go through what they do (with the exception of working as a zoo animal because well...that's weird lol).

Also I'm sorry about your good friend Evelyn :/ At least you enjoyed the class and the baka that is Mary-san. & yes, I have plans to briefly read Genki 2 for the dialogs and to quickly read the grammar points as part of my self study. You can read more about it if you'd like on my blog.

As for the dialogs in my textbook, it was pretty dry:

[EDIT] It is WORSE than I remembered it! and in romaji too. I'll save you the torture and write it out in Japanese.

Quote:田中: じゃ、答えて下さい。これは本ですか。
ブラウン: はい、それは本です。
田中:　いい、本ですね！
ブラウン:　はい、かなりいい本です。
田中:これは本ですか、えんぴつですか。
ブラウン:それはえんぴつです。  
田中:いい、 えんぴつですね！
ブラウン:はい、かなりいいえんぴつです。

-_- The dry and boring lives of Tanaka-san, Brown-san and occassionally Yamada-san.

(2016-06-20, 3:45 pm)GreenCross Wrote: Thank you so much for your suggestions Risu. It was enlightening. 

First off, do you have any other suggestions for low-level manga to start reading besides Yotsuba?

Also, I HAVE already started WaniKani and I find it to be fairly practical, but I plan on using it in conjunction with Anki, Genki and Tae Kim. I figure that at the end of the day, its all about what works best for us as individuals. 

I'll have to work on finding Japanese materials to start reading, as well as figuring out Anki.....those are two parts of this equation that I have yet to get a solid grasp on......particularly the Word Mining part, I followed the link you posted but I was overall confused on what was going on. 

But thank you again. I feel as though since I already have Genki I & II, I will just work through those books again in order to build up my grammar, basic kanji recognition and then supplement with Tae Kim. I'm going to continue to experiment with WaniKani because frankly being spoon feed Kanji doesn't seem like a bad deal (although I hear that it has its downsides, but I digress) and get Anki set up. I feel like what you described in accordance to reading is probably %100 true. I will certainly begin reading once I feel I have roughly a 700 word vocab.....so thank you for that suggestion. (Fortunately I listen to Japanese Music daily anyway, so I've already got that point down!) 

As a side question, in terms of the different grammar patterns and conjugations that arise in Formal, Informal, and Honorific/Humble scenarios, were you able to absorb those through your reading to the point where you could chat informally with friends, formally with co-workers and Honorifically/Humbly with your superiors? Or did you make sure to pay special attention during your grammar study?

Once again, thank you.

I wouldn't recommend starting reading with a meager 700 word vocabulary. It was challenging to say the least. As for other easy manga, you can follow this link.

Alternatively you can read NHK News Easy which is aimed at Japanese learners as well as Japanese kids

Learn from jaapnese song lyrics

As much as the japanese language is daunting there are some pretty kick add resources that are not available for other languages. Thank you programmers.

Like for lyrics you can use jedict and paste the lyrics and/or use rikaichan. I rmemeber when I first started I did a lot of song lyrics and it was like natural srs without the anki because certain grammar or tends to repeat. It's so rewarding and I think it's the most enjoyable way to learn conjugations and readings of common kanji. Plus you get good quality reading practice in general and you'll notice you read faster after doing a bunch of songs since you learn to recognize patterns. I really don't understand why people bother with some of the flash card sites or apps( I do use anki but it's stuff I add in that really pulls me in )Plus Japan is the number 2 music market so theres no way you won't find somethin and now there's youtube. Right now I'm trying to do this for spanish but it's so hard to find good music ( I even used pandora and all the good music ended. Up being Portuguese lol. But even then I don't love it. I'm sure it'll be a matter of time till I find good music) and there's jedict to paste in or rikaichan to explain conjugation crap etc. I have google translate and spanishdict which sucks compared to jdict and rikaichan.

Of courses there's also sub2srs. I once used this as a way to re listen to an episode of whatever show efficiently by joining up all the MP3 instead of actually doing the deck.

I second the song lyrics recommendation.  There are around 30 unique words in a typical song thanks to all of the repeated choruses and whatnot.  And if it's music you like, then you can just keep listening over time and it's fun instead of work.

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:Plus Japan is the number 2 music market so theres no way you won't find somethin and now there's youtube. Right now I'm trying to do this for spanish but it's so hard to find good music ( I even used pandora and all the good music ended. Up being Portuguese lol. But even then I don't love it. I'm sure it'll be a matter of time till I find good music)

I'm surprised that you can't find good spanish music.  I listen to a lot of spanish language music and I don't even understand spanish too well.  Try searching "rock en español" if you like rock.  Some names to check out in various genres, cafe tacuba, manu chao, control machete, lila downs, and I'm sure you know the gypsy kings and buena vista social club.  I just realized maybe you are looking for music from spain, not just spanish language, then there isn't much I know besides the gypsy kings who aren't really from spain, and sing in catalan from what I understand.

In my experience, the "foundation" of a natural language (I put foundation in quotes because it can't even really be said that a language has a foundation, the way math or physics does) is its most common sounds, written characters, morphemes, words and collocations.

The best way to learn that "foundation" is twofold:

1. by drilling (preferably with an SRS) lists of each (in the case of Japanese, the Kana, RtK Light, a good sentence deck for spoken Japanese and probably a vocab list, of words you already know when spoken, for reading/writing).

This drilling doesn't necessarily have to be IN ORDER of frequency, but definitely organized in a way that considers frequency. For instance, RtK Light aims to teach you the most common 1000 Kanji, but not in order of frequency, but rather in the order that makes it easiest to learn them...that's fine. Same with the various sentence decks that are built on the most common words (ideally, one should study decks that are buit on the the most common collocations, but, unfortunately, I don't know of any such FREE decks (I think there are some that attempt to do that, over on AJATT, JALUP, etc....not sure though, I never tried any).

2. immersion in comprehensible materials (easy materials, like readers, Yotsubato!, variety shows etc. ).

NOT by studying grammar rules, especially not by studying grammar rules explained in English. Grammar DOES NOT in fact form the foundation of a natural language. Learning all the grammar rules ever written WILL NOT make you be able to speak the language, AT ALL. Not even a little bit. Not even enough to ask for directions on the street.

Furthermore (and somewhat in contradiction to the above), learning a language is nothing like learning math, physics or computer science. Language learning is mostly a linear exercise, not an incremental one. You learn 20 things one day, 20 things the next day, and, eventually, you know enough to start understanding certain materials and being able to speak to some extent. But you don't BUILD on top of previous knowledge the way you do with other fields. If you don't know something "basic" in math, you can't move on to the next thing. In language learning, you CAN and you SHOULD.

In math or science, you need to understand ALL THE BASICS before you move on to something built on top of them. In language learning, you DON'T. And you shouldn't waste time trying. You don't need the kind of carefully crafted curriculum that you need to be able to learn most subjects. You just need to keep exposing yourself (gross) to whatever materials you find most enjoyable and easiest, irrespective of whether they're the FOUNDATION or not. Focusing on things that are most frequent is generally a good idea, but not an absolute necessity.

(2016-06-21, 1:24 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote: 2. immersion in comprehensible materials (easy materials, like readers, Yotsubato!, variety shows etc. ).

NOT by studying grammar rules, especially not by studying grammar rules explained in English. Grammar DOES NOT in fact form the foundation of a natural language. Learning all the grammar rules ever written WILL NOT make you be able to speak the language, AT ALL. Not even a little bit. Not even enough to ask for directions on the street.

Well, limited studying of grammar patterns sure does help make the material more comprehensible. I wouldn't go crazy with grammar study, but reading through the first 2 sections of tae kim would be more efficient than trying to puzzle out the grammar in some beginner materials knowing only the meanings of the words.

The thing about grammar is that there really isn't that many grammar patterns compared to the amount of kanji and vocabulary. There is a tae kim deck out there that's ~400 sentence cards with 3 repetitions of each grammar pattern so it's probably just over 100 patterns. Reading the grammar guide and going through the deck wouldn't take that much time and would prepare you to be able to understand most of the beginner reading material. I think at a minimum, reading through tae kims guide and perhaps studying the deck is well worth the minimal investment of time.

Once again, I should say that I am quite grateful for the thought some of you have put into your replies. The feedback is really helping me cobble together a method (or "game-plan" so to speak) on how I will be approaching my study.

To Yogurt909 and Stansfield123, you both mention that reading is important and should be done often, but when exactly is it appropriate to start doing so? As in, when is it appropriate to start reading? (For example, Risu above, mentioned that even with a 700 word vocabulary it would be quit difficult to start reading) Should you be at a point where you have several thousand words in your vocabulary a maybe 1,000 Kanji under your belt?

In regards to using programs like jedict and Rikaichan to read song lyrics (for example).....should one only do this if they already have several thousand words/sentences or kanji under their belt (as stated above)? If not, what would the strategy be? Translate every word, or maybe rip the song lyrics and create flashcards in Anki from phrases and words in the song, so you can study it (SRS) style and then eventually acquire the words in the song, and ultimately being able to read the lyrics? Is that the idea? I would just like a better idea of how to approach something like that?

NSpeaking from my experience do not bother srsing song lyrics. Go over the song with the lyrics multiple times ( find a good song) then move on to the next song. I wouldn't worry about grasping every aspect of comprehebsion with song lyrics one hundred percent because they are repetitive in nature. I remember I started doing song Lyrics right after I put a little effort into remembering hiragana and katkana from tae Kim guide ( I went through them once and put maybe 10 secs on each letter). Then I did a ballad song I loved but I read the hiragana so slow I had to pause every 10 seconds to keep up ( but obviously I don't have to look up the hiragana reading because the person is singing it slowly) . But eventually I was able to follow the song without pausing as much. I focused being able to follow the lyrics at the speed was person was singing and there's 2 aspects which is Reading and comprehending before the singer went to the next verse. Any hoo from there I must have done at least a hundred songs and I learned to read so many kanji readings  ( I got curious at one point and ran the notepad all the song lyrics I copy pasted to somewhere and the grand total was at least a 1000. So i felt very happy and accomplished that I knew 1000 readings but of course that's tip of the iceberg if you want to get fluent lol but still it's an amazing number. That number is daunting and I cannot imagine myself doing that from memorizing hardcore from a dictionary or frequency list etc . The advantage to the song lyric method is that you will NOT forget the readings like you would from torture memorization) and got the basic common conjugations down pat. I'm just glad I really did it this way I really just find it completely necessary to drill yourself with flash cards. It's just not worth srsing that's really common and basic because it comes off frequently . I feel like you have to not underestimate yourself as a human being who has a mind that is capable of picking patterns and whatnot. I didn't bother "mastering" a song before moving on to the next one since there's just so many good songs to learn from. I stayed with one song as much as I wanted as I long as I gained something I had no problem moving on.  



Btw if you have trouble remembering the reading of hiragana and kanji tofugu has some good mnemonic stories or something like that   And fyi I did anime songs then because I didn't know much japanee music then and they tended to have to have translations which is helpful

In regards to reading, I think Risu meant that it would be hard to read native material (manga, novels, newspapers) from the get go. You can actually start reading from Day 1. In fact, I encourage it! I'm sure many others feel the same way I do (I think?). But of course, read to a level that isn't too intimidating.

This is where Grader Reader types of reading material shine through: they are made specifically for the language learner in mind!

For example, the Japanese Graded Readers book set. The first book of the series, Japanese Graded Readers Level 0 - Vol. 1, is perfect for new Japanese learners. As stated:

Quote:Japanese Graded Readers (JGR) Level 0 is designed for the ambitious newcomer. It utilizes a vocabulary of 350 words, beginner-level kanji (coupled with furigana), and verb conjugations including ~desu, ~masu, present tense, past tense, and question form. JGR is challenging but not overwhelming. Each word, sentence and carefully constructed paragraph is chosen to help you steadily improve your Japanese.

Versus the last book of the series, Japanese Graded Readers Level 4 - Vol. 2, it assumes you are more advanced into your studies:

Quote:Designed for students with a proficiency level equivalent to Japanese Langauge Proficiency Test Level N2 and N3 (see chart below). The set of stories utilizes a vocabulary of about 1,300 words. The stories range in length from about 5,000 to 10,000 words. The grammar points include: causative form, causative/passive form, ~sou, ~rashii, ~koto ni suru/naru, etc.

If you're not willing to break your wallet for this (I'm not personally lol...maybe a bad move? Who knows), you can try free online resources like アニメ・マンガの日本語 Japanese in Anime & Manga which is an interactive manga that has audio, translations, grammar and culture notes. The Great Chokochoko Library also has graded readers according to JLPT levels. You can also check out this site: http://nihongo-e-na.com/ which contains website descriptions of Japanese learning websites. You can narrow it down to level and category. Here is the listings for [Reading] [Beginner] to get you started.

(2016-06-21, 11:07 pm)GreenCross Wrote: In regards to using programs like jedict and Rikaichan to read song lyrics (for example).....should one only do this if they already have several thousand words/sentences or kanji under their belt (as stated above)? If not, what would the strategy be? Translate every word, or maybe rip the song lyrics and create flashcards in Anki from phrases and words in the song, so you can study it (SRS) style and then eventually acquire the words in the song, and ultimately being able to read the lyrics? Is that the idea? I would just like a better idea of how to approach something like that?

It's up to you. I'm a big fan of this approach, which yogert909 has championed here as "pre-studying". I don't think you need a set number of words. Start with things you'd like to understand. If, after parsing the words for vocab/grammar and studying for a while, you can understand the general meaning, then keep using it as study material; if it's proving too difficult to pick apart at the moment, set it aside for a later date. (I've reaped a lot of satisfaction in my studies going back to things I found "ridiculously hard" just a year or two ago, and realizing that they're become comprehensible.)

Lyrics are fine for this, but keep in mind that singing isn't natural speech, and won't get you accustomed to the rhythms of everyday conversation. I'd recommend also using other L-R (Listening-Reading) materials, i.e., materials for which you have both audio and text transcripts. Easy anime/TV shows with Japanese subtitles, radio shows with transcripts, 昔話, and other resources listed in threads such as this will provide more than enough material to get you started.

tl;dr - Don't be afraid to dive in. Find materials suitable to your current level, and study them. Set aside the harder stuff for later.