I want to leave Canada at some point for a few years if possible.
I've pretty much narrowed it down to Japan or Taiwan.

Before anyone jumps in. Yes it's my choice. I find typing it out helps focus the mind a bit and feedback is not a bad thing.

I'll probably be ready to leave in about 4 years when I am 50ish. By that time I figure I can count on a Canadian sources income of about 30K but figure I'd need to work to get a visa as I don't have enough to play the perpetual student role.

Sapporo Japan
Advantages.
Canadian friendly climate.
Away from the major earthquake zones.
Language seems easier without access to instruction.
Disadvantages:
The debt/deficit/demographic situation is due to blow up at some point killing the chances of getting a work visa
The above but an earthquake shattering a major center.
Japanese is of limited use outside of Japan. I don't really follow the media aside from a few songs although the language is more pleasant on the ear, and native speakers in Canada are very rare. I've only met one in my life.


Taiwan:
Advantages
No real economic threats.
Even if I never go over, the language would be more useful there is Chinese movies [which are pretty good] and other programming on local TV plus lots of Chinese people in the bigger cities.
The language seems much easier if you get past the tones.
Disadvantages
Tones. I don't have the sort of cash currently to get significant instruction and feedback on if I am doing it right, nor do I have any Chinese friends currently and even if I did and they had the dialect I was trying to learn, I don't want to be "that guy". I'd hate to spend thousands of hours learning the language, mimicking Chinesepod only to find out that nobody understands me because my tones just isn't there.
I can't say I am really feeling Taiwan as much as Japan. I'd be more keen for the Mainland except for the pollution, but not so much Taiwan.
The heat and humidity. Oh and dinner plate sized giant spiders. I've seen pictures, it's insane. I'd rather take my chances with tentacle rape.

TL DR
Japan would seem more comfortable but it seems I may have difficulty going or staying if the economy tanks and if so my language efforts are a bit of a waste. Taiwan sounds like a less comfortable environment but the language would be more useful if I don't end up going over... if I can actually learn the language.


While I am at it. If I were to switch from RTK to RTH, fail and then back to RTK am I looking to enter a world of hurt with the same characters having different keywords and the like.

From the small amount of Chinese I learned I would say pronunciation is a lot more difficult than tones. There are plenty of sounds that aren't in English that are in Chinese.

Go to Japan. You can always vacation in Taiwan

[Zgarbas]

Plate-sized spiders exist in Japan as well. You're going to find them on any island nation due to Island Gigantism. Hokkaido might be better due to the colder climate, but I've never been so I can't tell you for sure.
Btw, I've only ever met Taiwanese people in Japan so that gives me a biased population sample, but they all knew English and Japanese.

Have you spent much time in both places? I spent a month in Thailand and a month in Japan which ended up making my choice completely trivial. To me they are two very different places so if you can't easily decide between the two then you probably need to spend a bit more time in each one and explore daily life a bit in each.

(2016-01-08, 7:15 am)tokyostyle Wrote: Have you spent much time in both places? I spent a month in Thailand and a month in Japan which ended up making my choice completely trivial. To me they are two very different places so if you can't easily decide between the two then you probably need to spend a bit more time in each one and explore daily life a bit in each.

Taiwan, not Thailand.

Aside from all of Canada and parts of the Northern States the only travel I've done was a weekend in Saint Pierre and Miquelon which technically speaking is part of France. Not really in a position at this point to travel. I'd like to figure it out before I make too much of an investment in a language. Anyhow they say being a tourist and living somewhere are very different things.

I'd like to figure it out before I make too much of an investment in a language.

And moving to a whole other country isn't an investment itself?

(2016-01-08, 2:22 pm)angelneko Wrote: I'd like to figure it out before I make too much of an investment in a language.

And moving to a whole other country isn't an investment itself?

It is also. However at this point I am in the language deciding phase [before I graduate from RTK to Genki], I am a few years from the sorting out my affairs and moving to another country phase.

However the same principle applies, if you are going to move somewhere, one should put some thought into it.

[Zgarbas]

I'd be really curious to hear your reasons for deciding to move to Japan/taiwan (are all other countries off the list?) when you've not even travelled abroad and don't seem to be particularly attached to either country. Of course, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone or reveal private details on a forum, I'm just curious.

ZgarbasI'd be really curious to hear your reasons for deciding to move to Japan/taiwan (are all other countries off the list?) when you've not even travelled abroad and don't seem to be particularly attached to either country. Of course, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone or reveal private details on a forum, I'm just curious.

Actually ignoring all other considerations but interest, it would be India, China and Japan. I was considering Hindi as the first language to try as well as Chinese but Japanese just seemed easier. It might sound strange but Korea isn't on my radar at all.

I don't hate my lungs enough to move to India or China even for a year.
Europe and the US isn't different enough and I doubt I could get a visa
Not a fan of South America. Africa is too much hard mode although Ghana sounds interesting.
Islamic countries are out.
The rest of SEA is too hot, too poor and too third worldy.
Hong Kong and Singapore seem too expensive.

As for why. It is a bit of a TL DR situation to give it full justice.
Although some very recent events [past couple of days] seem promising to have a reason to stay in Canada, but years of Jedi teaching experience tells me I'll screw it up. As it is, the old man is in his early 80s and once he goes I have no reason to stay. I'll use that time to work on a language as I don't need to work. He would never ask me to stay but he has been there for me through some hard times so it is the least I can do.

Even if I don't live overseas, picking up a language or two can't be a bad thing.

Oddly enough I am now pretty convinced that Northern Japan would be better than Taiwan as long as the economy doesn't go into a massive depression. Although I suppose I could spend a couple of years on an educational visa doing something or other.

Oddly enough, I am also pretty much convinced that I should work on Chinese first then switch to Japanese. Mostly because I think I'd get more use out of Chinese while living here and I think tones might be doable. I have only done 65% of RTK and 2/3rds of that applies to the Hanzi world.

Your worry about the economy is pretty unfounded I think, unless your supplemental income is massively affected by that.

The 'core' foreign jobs in Japan Eikaiwa/ALTs probably won't see their market change all that much. Eikaiwas might scale down slightly but they won't dissapear. ALTs are supported by government contracts. Now if you are planning to get a real job in Japan then the equation might change slightly.

Japan's debt won't become a problem for the economy for years to come since so much of it is insular. The same holds true for demographics. Japan can still tap their female workforce to fill in the gaps and the demographics don't become critical until about 2040 or so, when 1/3 of the population is over 65. Even then, I don't think Japan is stubborn enough to sink itself by refusing to relax immigration policies. Japan will just open up immigration more in order to fill in the voids, which will be low wage jobs and healthcare.

As far as the whole Taiwan vs Japan thing goes, I've never been to Taiwan so I can't comment. But as far as weather is concerned, Hokkaido is probably the best for you. Beyond that I don't think you have to worry too much unless you are heavily committing to living in Japan for about 10 years or even planning to retire there. Generally, foreigners that aren't tied down to Japan in some fashion (married, can only live by being in Japan [ie: unemployable in other countries], etc) only tend to make it to about 7 years on average before Japan has worn them ragged and they decide its time to return home. This seems to happen faster if you are an eikaiwa/ALT (this lot can get very bitter).

So just pick a place and go. At your age, I'd expect you'd have already weighed the issues of moving to another country and how that affects you long term. At 50, [potential] retirement is on the horizon, so I assume that's something you factored in.

(2016-01-10, 4:31 pm)vix86 Wrote: Your worry about the economy is pretty unfounded I think, unless your supplemental income is massively affected by that.

The 'core' foreign jobs in Japan Eikaiwa/ALTs probably won't see their market change all that much. Eikaiwas might scale down slightly but they won't dissapear. ALTs are supported by government contracts. Now if you are planning to get a real job in Japan then the equation might change slightly.

Japan's debt won't become a problem for the economy for years to come since so much of it is insular. The same holds true for demographics. Japan can still tap their female workforce to fill in the gaps and the demographics don't become critical until about 2040 or so, when 1/3 of the population is over 65. Even then, I don't think Japan is stubborn enough to sink itself by refusing to relax immigration policies. Japan will just open up immigration more in order to fill in the voids, which will be low wage jobs and healthcare.

As far as the whole Taiwan vs Japan thing goes, I've never been to Taiwan so I can't comment. But as far as weather is concerned, Hokkaido is probably the best for you. Beyond that I don't think you have to worry too much unless you are heavily committing to living in Japan for about 10 years or even planning to retire there. Generally, foreigners that aren't tied down to Japan in some fashion (married, can only live by being in Japan [ie: unemployable in other countries], etc) only tend to make it to about 7 years on average before Japan has worn them ragged and they decide its time to return home. This seems to happen faster if you are an eikaiwa/ALT (this lot can get very bitter).

So just pick a place and go. At your age, I'd expect you'd have already weighed the issues of moving to another country and how that affects you long term. At 50, [potential] retirement is on the horizon, so I assume that's something you factored in.

ALTs don't sound too bad depending on school.
Eikaiwas sound for me at least to be horrid.
Taiwan Eikaiwas or whatever they are called seem even worse.

I am not really keen on working, I could live a modest life without ever getting another job. However for visas it is either work, or study and work on the side to cover the tuition [which is beyond modest life]. If I did the latter, a collapsing economy would be actually ideal as the Yen would tank and that Canadian Tissue Paper would go further.
As for working a real job. I have mixed feelings. On one hand it would be a way to get a real glimpse into life and a way to fit in. However there is no way I would spend those punishing hours. In an ideal world I'd get a visa on a 15 to 20 hour work schedule. Enough to sort of fit in and the extra bucks would be nice but leaving lots of time for other stuff. I hear mixed things about if you can get a visa on that though. I've heard they dropped the monthly minimum wage for English teaching visas. 

I doubt I'd want to retire to Japan. I suppose it depends on how it works out. Canada for me at least seems to have a better deal for the senior set.
Retirement isn't on the horizon, it's here, now.
My biggest concerns other than language is the mess moving overseas has with your finances. It is fine for a young buck out of university with nothing but debt. I have investments, I have my Tax Sheltered Savings Account. All sorts of weird stuff applies. I know someone who was teaching English in Thailand when the whole global cluster fornication hit. He couldn't sell his mutual funds because he was no longer a resident. It is all very confusing. Hopefully the interest rates will be back up to normal levels by the time I am ready to go and I'll plop the whole lot into an annuity.

I'm not sure if you could find a 15-20 hour job. ALTs/Eikaiwas tend to stick to what they call the 24.5 hour work week (or whatever it is), which is a load of BS since what they really mean is "You'll be in class for 24.5 hours but then you have to still be at work for almost a total of 40 hours." This could be different at eikaiwas where you may in fact only be there about 20 hours, but at ALTs you can almost bet you will be at that school for 8-9 hours a day.

Trying to find a job that does 15-20 hours might be possible if you can find a small eikaiwa (ie: NOT a corporate run chain), which in that case they'd be more reasonable with your hours. The problem becomes whether they can sponsor the visa though, which they may not be able to do.

As far as free time to do stuff though, eikaiwa is likely to provide the least amount of time since you usually work during the periods when kids are on vacation. ALT work can provide a decent amount of free time to do stuff though since you aren't expected to be at the school during long breaks. So you could potentially have part of June, all of July, and part of August off. Then about 2-3 weeks off at end of December and start of January. Then about 2-3 weeks off at end of march/april. Whether you are paid during that time off though depends on the company. ALT work is also not very forgiving when it comes to trying to get time off during the school year. Companies will balk and guilt trip you if you are trying to get time off for non-illness/non-bureaucratic related issues.

I guess the real question is how much freedom do you want to do stuff. Because every option is going to have limitations.

I'd rather work with adults, but some of those eiks don't seem pleasant to work with.

I've seen an ad on backpages or something like that in BC [I don't live anywhere near there] offering full and very part time work but perhaps the part time stuff is designed for people with one of those working vacation visas.

It would seem the school + part time work might be the best option. Overall it involves more hours but the schooling would involve learning something which is fine and from what I understand a lot of the language schools at least are about 8 grand a year which shouldn't take too much to earn part time if you have a student visa that allows part time work.

well since this is turning into a visa conversation, I'd say that you should consult with a lawyer who can go over all the possible ways for you to live legally in japan.

while staying in japan I met a chinese friend who had just graduated college and was convinced he had about 6 months to find a company to sponsor him before he would have to leave the country. he was freaked out so my japanese friend took him to consult with a lawyer.
well it turns out this friend had a little money from an inheritance, and was told that if he created a corporation using his apartment as an address, and invested $500,000 in a japanese bank as corporate capital, he could get a visa. shachou visa they called it lol.

in the end visas are all about protecting jobs for citizens. if you have a ton of money you're obviously no threat, and will likely create jobs though hiring and consumption. so as unfair as it looks, getting a visa is usually pretty easy for people with money.
I'm not sure about your finances but it seems you have a somewhat comfortable life. you might look into starting a shell company in japan in order to get a visa, or at least try talking to a visa-specialist attorney.

(2016-01-07, 10:31 am)Dudeist Wrote: Taiwan:
Advantages
No real economic threats.

I was surprised that you said this. My understanding is that there is a major geopolitical issue regarding whether Taiwan is an independent country or part of China, and that this sometimes gets close to military action (see e.g. wikipedia's article on the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis).

I am aware of the China issue, but I'd think as long as the Americans are sniffing around the PRC won't really do much about it. Also they are still a while away from having the force projection to force the issue even if the USN didn't get involved. I suppose they could blockade Taiwan again if the US stays out of things but the diplomatic fecal storm wouldn't seem worth it. North Korea is run by more unstable people and they haven't pushed things for almost 65 years, well not too much.



One thing I've been reading about Japan is they don't seem to be a very talkative people. That Rule of 7 guys in a comment on his page said he had some housemates and they pretty much just hung out in silence watching TV. I've read others who note that married couples seem to rarely speak to each other. Plus the common complaints by people who know Japanese who make no friends, or at least no real friends. Although there seems to be a YMMV thing going on.

I've heard that Chinese people tend to be more talkative but likewise I hear complaints of a different nature. That aside from the "teach me English" vibe you get all across the region there is a strong element of Guanxi where at least on the mainland people are more interested in what you can do for them then any sort of western style friendship, several accounts of people on the mainland after so many years who end up withdrawing from social contact over continuous disappointments and giving up. Which sounds like the foreigners giving up on Japan in about 7 years unless something forces them to stay comment above. I've never really noticed a problem with the limited sample size of Chinese I've known long term [2 from Hong Kong] or two a bit more recent [PRC born] aside from a bit of a language issue making things flow less than smoothly with some of them. However that is here not there.

[Zgarbas]

Friends will not fall from the sky regardless of where you go. I think that a lot of the 'Japanese/Chinese/X people are unfriendly' complaints come from people who magically expect to make friends wherever they go, with minimum effort. It's easier to blame other people's culture than yourself as an individual.

(2016-01-11, 4:09 am)Zgarbas Wrote: Friends will not fall from the sky regardless of where you go. I think that a lot of the 'Japanese/Chinese/X people are unfriendly' complaints come from people who magically expect to make friends wherever they go, with minimum effort. It's easier to blame other people's culture than yourself as an individual.

There a lots of comments about a lot of different things. That is the problem, you never get the full story, the personal situation that can effect the situation.

(2016-01-07, 10:31 am)Dudeist Wrote: Sapporo Japan
Advantages.
Canadian friendly climate.
Away from the major earthquake zones.
Language seems easier without access to instruction.

Disadvantages:
The debt/deficit/demographic situation is due to blow up at some point killing the chances of getting a work visa
The above but an earthquake shattering a major center.
Japanese is of limited use outside of Japan. I don't really follow the media aside from a few songs although the language is more pleasant on the ear, and native speakers in Canada are very rare. I've only met one in my life.

2016年の半ば本州北部から北海道にかけての地震。札幌は都市機能奪われる。
http://falcon238.jugem.jp/?eid=1262

全国地震動予測地図 別冊1 都道府県別確率論的地震動予測地図 （平成21年7月21日公表）
http://www.jishin.go.jp/main/chousa/09_y...kkaido.pdf

付録－２　地震動予測地図を見てみよう
http://www.jishin.go.jp/main/chousa/13_y...izu/f2.pdf

M6.7 quake strikes off Hokkaido; 2 injured
National Jan. 14, 2016 - 07:52PM JST

Quote:diuneahmaJan. 15, 2016 - 03:54AM JST
Second one in Hokkaido this month, hope there's no third..

http://www.japantoday.com/category/natio...mi-warning

japan without hesitation i lived there for almost 10 years the best

Dudeist,

Having spent time in both places I can enthusiastically say "Japan! Make it Japan."  Here are my personal reasons:

1. Culture. Japan's culture is much richer and more varied than Taiwan's. Cultural traditions go back further and there are many more interesting things to see: temples, shrines, gardens, castles, preserved post towns, etc. You will find some of these things in Taiwan but they tend to be newer and not as historically or culturally significant.

2. Climate. Taiwan is much hotter, wetter and more humid than Japan. Plus Japan's climate varies depending on where you are. Taiwan is pretty much the same throughout the island.

3. Natural beauty. Taiwan has beautiful scenery, make no mistake. But it all tends to be similar. Japan's nature is more varied and diverse--palm trees in Nagasaki to pine forests in Hokkaido. 

4. Language. Admittedly, I speak Japanese and not much Mandarin, but I consider Japanese to be more listenable than Chinese. It flows better and just sounds more pleasant to me. Chinese may be more useful in the world right now, so if that's your main focus, go for Mandarin. But there's no reason you can't learn both.

Also, earthquakes should not really be a consideration. I don't have any statistics for this, but it seems to me that even in a major earthquake most Japanese and tourists still manage to survive. 


Good luck.

Or come to the Mainland where KMarkP's first three points are valid, too. xD

"Japanese is of limited use outside of Japan."

I thought that at first as well, but am slowly changing my mind about it.

A few months ago, I went to Bali for 2 months and started studying basic Indonesian the first few days between surf sessions; but at some point, I inevidibly got roped into the Japanese expat community and didn't speak english for days on end, only Japanese; and still trying to learn some indonesian.  It was bittersweet as my indo study suffered, but stayed up on japanese without trying by being forced into it.

A similar thing happened a few years ago in Istanbul, although a little bit less intense.

I found opportunities to converse weekly in Virginia and California via conversations with barber, masseuse, and restaurant staff; and quick two minute conversations on the streets with the obvious Japanese tourists.

Anyway, just my experiences.

(2016-02-11, 12:12 am)Wurstmann Wrote: Or come to the Mainland where KMarkP's first three points are valid, too. xD

If it were not so horribly polluted Mainland China would be high on that list. I know the south isn't as bad as the north but then you get the heat and Cantonese with twice as many tones.

I think I'll pass. If I were to go the Chinese direction, I'd do Taiwan.

As for Japanese being useless overseas. I am pushing 50. I've met one half Japanese girl, perhaps had 10 minutes of conversation with her. Based on one story she told me I'd guess she knows some Japanese but I don't know how much. I did Karate from a white dude who lived in Japan and had a wife who didn't seem comfortable in English but we never really socialized either.
That is about it. I would have gotten much more use out of Chinese or even Korean.

In town I hear there is a Japanese girl who is married to some white guy. Have never met her though. There are some exchange students but it would be a bit pedobearish to talk to them considering my age but even on that front, much more Chinese.

Can't swing a dead cat on St Catherines street in Montreal without hitting a Chinese speaking person.

I suppose if I knew Japanese, maybe via the consulate in Ottawa or Montreal I could find people to talk to but Chinese would be so much easier.

Never mind that Chinese movies are so much better at least to me [like Hollywood and Bollywood they range from great to crap] and they come on once a week on Canadian TV and I can even watch them in an actual movie theatre an hour away [ditto Bollywood].

My ongoing fear with Japanese is that if I don't go over there, it will represent a huge pointless time suck. Likewise if I go there for say a year and it doesn't appeal to me, I'd be hard pressed to keep it up when I got back home. It would only pay off if I spent say 3 to 5 years there.
Sadly I've looked into tones and my confidence in tackling them without an actual instructor to beat corrections into me is very low. From what I understand it is hard to find an instructor who is good in teaching tones and the options are someone near local which is brutal expensive or someone online and I don't like the idea of skyping too much.

I still think of switching at times. I got about 250 Kanji left on the RTK, once I start on Genki I figure I'm locked in and might as well stick with what I started.

Also very recent events have really dented any motivation I have for doing anything in terms of self improvement. That however is another story.